[cdi-dev] About JSR 330.Next and CDI 2.0

Martijn Verburg martijnverburg at gmail.com
Thu Jul 3 04:51:26 EDT 2014

Hi All,

To be blunt, this is a social/community issue - not a technical one.  We
simply need to get hold of the folks at Pivotal, Google (and other 330 EG
members) and get them around the virtual table.  If they subsequently
aren't interested then fine, you should forge your own path.

There's an absolute mega ton of 330 based DI code out there and 330
compliant containers, if CDI 2.0 wants to be the defacto std going forwards
it simply can't afford ignore that.

@Antoine - let's put our heads together and see who we need to get hold of
in the 330 group, I think CDI 2.0 has strong merits and should be explored.

@Werner - your comments about Bob's commitment (considering what he's done
for the tech community at large, let alone Java) are highly inappropriate,
please refrain from personal attacks on this or any other public forum.


On 3 July 2014 09:02, Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com> wrote:

> > To sum up, as a Java EE user (like I have been for 10 years) I’d be
> happy to see this (scenario 2), but as CDI spec lead I fear that it could
> lead us in a trap (going to scenario 1 or consuming precious time on
> AtInject+1 instead of CDI 2.0)
> Well, I'm not spec lead, I'm just a Java EE user... so I like scenario 2
> ;o)
> But on the other hand, I think there is so much work to be done around CDI
> 2.0, parts, and taking those parts to other specifications that battling
> with JSR 330 might be time consuming. I would go for scenario 1.... and
> cross fingers
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:18 PM, Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Dear Antoine/all,
>> Thanks for the detailed overview and trying to reach out to the former
>> Spec Leads and EG of JSR 330. I also copied Anatole, Spec Lead of JSR 354,
>> since Bob Lee is officially in his EG, but has practically never provided
>> input there either (like we tend to see sometimes from others considered
>> "Rock Stars" of the Java Community but since then seemingly resting on
>> their laurels or just too busy counting their stock options?[?])
>> Given CDI already was the public perception of "javax.inject" for most
>> parts, I don't necessarily see that it had to be an MR to the original JSR,
>> though as those involved in the EC (Martijn, Badr/MoroccoJUG,..) could
>> probably check with the PMO how to handle a case where the Maintenance Lead
>> of a JSR was not in the position to continue. I last met Jürgen Höller
>> about a year ago in Copenhagen, so for Pivotal's part as Co Spec Lead, I
>> guess he or the likes of Josh Long could be best to speak to. Happy to get
>> you in touch with them if you want.
>> Red Hat was also EG member of JSR 330, so Pete, Gavin or whoever else was
>> there (I remember him from conversations where Mike Keith and I took part
>> in synergy discussions between 330 and CDI 1.0) at the time could also help
>> you with this.
>> In theory this could also be part of a new JSR (CDI 2) as long as none of
>> the enhancements you have in mind break the existing API of JSR 330. The
>> scope of CDI 2 to work in an SE/standalone or more lightweight environment
>> than Java EE environment raises a good question of package names like " javax.enterprise.inject.*"
>> So maybe there is room for synergies in a package namespace other than
>> "javax.enterprise" at least for new things you have in mind.
>> Kind Regards,
>>  Werner Keil | JCP Executive Committee Member, JSR 363 Co Spec Lead |
>> Eclipse UOMo Lead, Babel Language Champion | Apache Committer
>> Twitter @wernerkeil | @UnitAPI | @JSR354 | #EclipseUOMo | #Java_Social |
>> #DevOps
>>  Skype werner.keil | Google+ gplus.to/wernerkeil
>> * Developer Week: 14/15 Jul 2014, Nürnberg, Germany. Werner Keil, JCP EC
>> Member, JSR 363 Spec Lead, DevOps Guy will present "Triple-E' class
>> Continuous Delivery", "JSR 363 and IoT" (GER)
>> * JavaZone 2014: 9-11 Sep 2014, Oslo, Norway. Werner Keil, JCP EC Member,
>> JSR 363 Spec Lead will present "JSR 363 - The Answer to Life Science and
>> the Internet of Everything"
>> * JavaOne 2014: Sep 28-Oct 2 2014, San Francisco, USA, Werner Keil, JCP
>> EC Member, JSR 354 EG Member will host "Java and Digital Currencies, Friend
>> or FOE"
>> * JMaghreb 3.0: 4-6 Nov 2014, Casablanca, Morocco. Werner Keil, JCP EC
>> Member, JSR 363 Spec Lead, DevOps Guy will present "Triple-E' class
>> DevOps", "JSR 363"
>> * Mobile Developer Conference kompakt: 18 Nov 2014, Hamburg, Germany.
>> Werner Keil, JCP EC Member, Apache DeviceMap Committer will present "Apache
>> DeviceMap" (GER)
>> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 10:43 PM, Antoine Sabot-Durand <
>> antoine at sabot-durand.net> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> Since the first mention of CDI 2.0 preparation work, we've received a
>>> lot of comment about JSR 330 evolution. With the release of the proposal
>>> draft yesterday, this topic came up again. So let me give my point of view
>>> on this subject to have an open discussion here.
>>> When we started to discuss about modularity with Pete in last november,
>>> my first idea was to go see what we could add in JSR 330 to make it a true
>>> specification that could be the first module of CDI. My idea at that time
>>> was to discuss with JSR 330 owner to see if we could bring basic concept we
>>> have in CDI to AtInject spec. In my mind the main features would have been:
>>>  - Enhance the javax.inject.Provider<T> interface to bring it at the
>>> same level than javax.enterprise.inject.Instance<T>. That would have
>>> included support for AnnotationLiteral and TypeLiteral as well
>>>  - Add a Container interface (a very light BeanManger) in JSR 330 to be
>>> able to resolve beans instance from outside managed beans
>>>  - Add a mechanism to get this Container from non managed beans (like we
>>> get access to BeanManager from JNDI or CDI class)
>>> At that time, I contacted Bob Lee without success (didn’t tried Pivotal
>>> since I don’t have contact there). I checked with JCP what could be done if
>>> we’d like to see an evolution of JSR 330 and the owner doesn’t care, there
>>> seems to have solutions but I let it aside since we were in the middle of
>>> CDI 1.2 MR at that time.
>>> Today I’m a bit torn about this point. Working on opening JSR 330 could
>>> be like opening pandora box, since I see 2 scenarios :
>>> 1) former JSR 330 owners wake up and are ok to get for a new spec
>>> version they lead:
>>> Knowing the history of JSR 330 vs JSR 299 I’m not sure everything we’d
>>> need would be heard and even if the people leading this would be
>>> cooperative, a lot of discussion and negotiation would be needed to be sure
>>> that this new AtInject wouldn’t contain features incompatible with CDI. So
>>> it’d be very time consuming with no guarantee to get what we’d need at the
>>> end.
>>> 2) former JSR 330 owner don’t mind others take ownership of their spec
>>> to enhance it and we (Red Hat) are the one to take this ownership to secure
>>> CDI:
>>> The best solution to minimize risk. But leading a new specification is a
>>> lot more work than just deciding that we have a specific basic inject «
>>> part » in  CDI 2.0. Leading a spec is very time consuming, so it could be
>>> better on the paper but will impact CDI 2.0 new features.
>>> To sum up, as a Java EE user (like I have been for 10 years) I’d be
>>> happy to see this (scenario 2), but as CDI spec lead I fear that it could
>>> lead us in a trap (going to scenario 1 or consuming precious time on
>>> AtInject+1 instead of CDI 2.0)
>>> Your input, solutions or comment would be appreciated on this point.
>>> Antoine
> --
> Antonio Goncalves
> Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
> Web site <http://www.antoniogoncalves.org> | Twitter
> <http://twitter.com/agoncal> | LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/agoncal> | Pluralsight
> <http://pluralsight.com/training/Authors/Details/antonio-goncalves> | Paris
> JUG <http://www.parisjug.org> | Devoxx France <http://www.devoxx.fr>
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