[cdi-dev] With the end of Java Config...
Werner Keil
werner.keil at gmail.com
Sun Sep 7 17:39:51 EDT 2014
Sounds like an argument for a CDI module rather than a separate JSR then?;-)
On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 11:32 PM, Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would not worry about CDI regarding licensing. Just the sentence was
> that Oracle does not want to have more ALv2 in addition to what is already
> there. So as long as we do things within CDI, no worries, I think. For new
> EE JSRs nevertheless this is a BIG issue and should be clarified by the EC!
>
>
> 2014-09-07 21:44 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>:
>
>> Indeed, and with CDI 1.2 (MR) and 2.0 offering even the Spec under ALv2
>> as a dual-license, this was discussed by EC Members but both JCP EC and
>> Oracle Legal/PMO seems fine with it, and CDI is already an essential
>> building block to Java EE 6/7, hence used with Glassfish, too. I wasn't
>> involved in these discussions, but given CDI is especially liberal and
>> fully accepted by JCP formalities and license policies, I don't really see
>> what the problem wss for Anatole's JSR attempt (though I know, both Oracle
>> and other EC Members/companies don't always prefer this kind of
>> licensing...;-)
>>
>> Werner
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:28 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, this mail has me more concerned than anything. Can you clarify this
>>> ALv2 statement? AFAIK, Weld (the CDI RI) is ALv2.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All
>>>>
>>>> unfortunately things seem quite complicated:
>>>>
>>>> - first of all,* similarities with Deltaspike are basically not
>>>> accidental*. The concepts we developed in Credit Suisse are very
>>>> similar to Deltaspike, though Deltaspike was not yet born at that time.
>>>> Fortunately we ended up with a similar kind of solution.
>>>> - *filtering still can be done.* My idea is to define some kind of
>>>> "configuration provider", which then is dynamically asked for
>>>> configuration. How the provider is internally organized, is completely
>>>> transparent to CDI. This enables to have multi-layered, complex config
>>>> solutions work the same (from a view point of CDI) like simple programmatic
>>>> test configurations during unit tests. The config provider still can
>>>> support filtering and dynamic resolution as commonly used in configuration
>>>> systems. Similarly the format is basically also not fixed. Of course, would
>>>> a reference implementation provide a set of functionalities, but I would
>>>> definitively not define the exact configuration mechanism as part of the
>>>> CDI (or even a EE config JSR). Another reason, beside complexity and time,
>>>> is the fact that different companies handle, store and manage configuration
>>>> differently, so a mechanism must be flexible enough to accommodate these,
>>>> without adoption rate will be low. Furthermore this flexibility also keeps
>>>> doors open for use cases we do not know yet.
>>>> - Also we have to separate some basically *two types of
>>>> configuration aspects:*
>>>> - *application config *basically is injected into deployed
>>>> components, but basically only can affect deployment to the extend it can
>>>> be managed and injected by CDI. The basic architecture and design, how
>>>> application servers to load and deploy are basically not affected. This
>>>> type of configuration (mechanism) I see also as a possible addition to CDI,
>>>> if we really fail to do something in another JSR. With CDI going for a more
>>>> modular design, even basic configuration of CDI can be possible, given we
>>>> have some kind of API, we can access during CDI initialization.
>>>> - On the other side *deployment configuration *affects directly
>>>> how the application server deploys the application. Configuration here
>>>> would allow to define datasources, EJBs, transactional aspects, security,
>>>> persistence, war and ear configurations etc. Basically everything you do as
>>>> of today with some kind of XML file, or annotation. Hereby enabling more
>>>> flexibility into the existing descriptors is relatively easy, but as
>>>> mentioned by Mark, constraint. Adding more flexibility raises other subtle
>>>> problems. Imagine a application module, e.g. a war, that defines everything
>>>> it requires. There is no need to configure anything more on server side
>>>> (with spring you can do this, with Java EE unfortunately not). But this has
>>>> a severe consequence, it would make the application really portable in the
>>>> sense, that it can be moved between different app servers (vendors) without
>>>> any change (ideally). As a result commercial profits of some vendor
>>>> companies may be affected. I think this is actually one of the key points,
>>>> why things are getting so complicated in that area.
>>>> - *Legal aspects* also were discussed. One of them is a possible
>>>> legal clash of ALv2 with GPL. This is the case already within Glassfish,
>>>> but one of the reasons, why ALv2 was not acceptable to Oracle's legal
>>>> department. At the end we decided to use a BSD model. Even dual licensing
>>>> BSD/ALv2 could theoretically be an option. If you would choose ALv2, Oracle
>>>> will not include your RI into Glassfish, which is the RI for the EE
>>>> Umbrella JSR, meaning your JSR will not be included into EE8. So what
>>>> should we do? I don't have a good answer...
>>>>
>>>> So, I like to discuss configuration aspects here. Nevertheless if we
>>>> decide to add config aspects, be aware that we might only (mainly) support
>>>> application config, since everything else directly would impact other JSRs.
>>>> And that is obviously quite similar to what Apache Deltaspike is all about
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Anatole
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2014-09-07 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mark Struberg <struberg at yahoo.de>:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, the config group also was (obviously) looking at DeltaSpikes
>>>>> config mechanism as well.
>>>>> There were others who wanted to go more into the 'filtering' approach
>>>>> as done on WebLogic servers (though not sure who else does that as well).
>>>>> You know, having all the XML configs like WEB-INF/web.xml containing
>>>>> placeholders and the real values only get placed in there at deployment
>>>>> time. I personally find this approach a bit limited from a technical
>>>>> perspective and it already didn't work out for me when using WebLogic (what
>>>>> about changing a configured value after the deployment was done? What about
>>>>> security? Having passwords in web.xml, unit testing, ...).
>>>>> There are of course also other approaches which all might have strong
>>>>> sides and would have needed to get discussed.
>>>>>
>>>>> But utterly the problem seems to have been legal reasons. We even
>>>>> offered to have Anatole/CS lead the EG and do the RI as an ASF project with
>>>>> substantial support and participation from the JBoss, DeltaSpike and TomEE
>>>>> communities.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, the time will come when we will resurrect this effort.
>>>>>
>>>>> LieGrue,
>>>>> strub
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, 7 September 2014, 14:29, Werner Keil <
>>>>> werner.keil at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, it contains a simple but extendable notion of ProjectStage, too;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 2:19 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Anatole,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm wondering if some of your configuration description falls under
>>>>> what was put together in DeltaSpike?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://deltaspike.apache.org/configuration.html
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Staging is not a question of xml or not xml (the "format" of config).
>>>>> You can do staged config also using xml, or based on a database or json
>>>>> config service. Staging as well as, more generally speaking, environment
>>>>> dependent config is more like to select/filter the right config that
>>>>> *targets *the current (runtime) environment. This might include
>>>>> stages, but also many other aspects are feasible and common (server, tier,
>>>>> ear, war, tenant ...). Since these aspects are per se very complex, it
>>>>> might be advisable to leave them out of any spec (even a dedicated config
>>>>> JSR would probably not be capable of covering these within the relatively
>>>>> short EE timeframe)...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2014-09-05 23:30 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Jens/all,
>>>>>
>>>>> A sort of "staging" already was possible using CDI earlier, see
>>>>> examples like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16907185/multiple-cdi-configuration-profiles-devel-beta-qa-production-in-one-war
>>>>>
>>>>> DeltaSpike also includes type-safe staging that goes beyond the
>>>>> primitive, hard-coded JSF enum.
>>>>>
>>>>> If that works without XML, while still allowing flexible configuration
>>>>> for different stages or to add and "inject" additional stages maybe even
>>>>> on a tenant basis (for Cloud scenarios) I could see something like that
>>>>> work without XML. In the Multiconf project we managed to code everything in
>>>>> Python, and similar to Puppet or Chef you can configure and deploy multiple
>>>>> environments with it, Java EE, Spring or Play! several of them are
>>>>> configured this way and it requires no XML (where the container needs such
>>>>> files, the framework generates them;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Werner
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:21 PM, <cdi-dev-request at lists.jboss.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Re: Tools : Google Drive vs Asciidoc and Github (Anatole Tresch)
>>>>> 2. Re: With the end of Java Config... (Anatole Tresch)
>>>>> 3. [JBoss JIRA] (CDI-456) fix Bean#getBeanClass() definition
>>>>> (Anatole Tresch (JIRA))
>>>>> 4. Re: With the end of Java Config... (Jens Schumann)
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 20:20:53 +0000
>>>>> From: Jens Schumann <jens.schumann at openknowledge.de>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [cdi-dev] With the end of Java Config...
>>>>> To: Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com>, Antonio Goncalves
>>>>> <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>
>>>>> Cc: cdi-dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>
>>>>> Message-ID: <D02FDD99.396B9%jens.schumann at openknowledge.de>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>>>
>>>>> I can confirm that this approach works very well. We are using a
>>>>> similar approach a couple of years now, and I love the simplicity that
>>>>> comes with portable extensions and @Producer methods. See our public
>>>>> version here [1] (works since early CDI 1.0 days) .
>>>>>
>>>>> Instead of a @Inject + Qualifier we just use the qualifier @Property.
>>>>> We support default values and type conversation for primitives and
>>>>> everything that has a string based constructor. The property source can be
>>>>> anything, from property files (default) to databases or xml files. For
>>>>> examples see tests here [2].
>>>>>
>>>>> Nevertheless I am not sure if this should be part of an future CDI
>>>>> spec. My concerns include the bloat argument, of course. But the main
>>>>> reason relates to the fact that we have almost everything in the current
>>>>> CDI spec already.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right now I am quite happy with an custom portable extension that does
>>>>> everything for me. At the time we implemented the extension we realised
>>>>> that the "hard part" was writing an extension that links a qualified
>>>>> "optional injection point" with an @Producer method while supporting code
>>>>> based default values. Luckily I had Arne in my team who did that within a
>>>>> few minutes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of this experience I would propose that we simplify extension
>>>>> development such that "optional injection points" may be linked to
>>>>> @Produces values easily. Additionally we have to solve a few more
>>>>> integration issues (e.g. read-only DB access should be available during CDI
>>>>> startup). Everything else should be provided by portable extensions (e.g.
>>>>> via delta-spike) and documentation/howtos at cdi-spec.org.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jens
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> https://github.com/openknowledge/openknowledge-cdi-extensions/tree/master/openknowledge-cdi-common/src/main/java/de/openknowledge/cdi/common/property
>>>>> [2]
>>>>> https://github.com/openknowledge/openknowledge-cdi-extensions/blob/master/openknowledge-cdi-common/src/test/java/de/openknowledge/cdi/common/property
>>>>>
>>>>> Von: Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com<mailto:atsticks at gmail.com>>
>>>>> Datum: Friday 5 September 2014 21:22
>>>>> An: Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com<mailto:
>>>>> antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>>
>>>>> Cc: CDI-Dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org<mailto:cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>>
>>>>> Betreff: Re: [cdi-dev] With the end of Java Config...
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not like to add an XML "bloated" mechanism as part of CDI 2.0.
>>>>> Spontaneously I would propose a more CDI like things like:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * Adding a @Configured annotation (basically a qualifier). This
>>>>> can be in addition to @Inject and would allow to inject "configured" values.
>>>>> * Since configuration can change we may think of a (CDI)
>>>>> event/reinject mechanism based on config changes. By default, this is
>>>>> switched off and we can discuss how it would be activated, e.g. by an
>>>>> additional flag settable with the @Configured annotation, or an additional
>>>>> @Observable ConfigChangeEvent (similar to the Griffon framework), or both.
>>>>> * Hereby configured values theoretically behave similar as all
>>>>> other injection points. They also can be qualified (the aspect of scopes, I
>>>>> did not yet have time to think about). The only difference is, that they
>>>>> are satisified using the configuration "system".
>>>>> * The configuration "source" itself could in the extreme simplest
>>>>> way be a Provider<Map<String,String>>. The CDI spec should not care about
>>>>> how this map is provided (XML, DB, overrides, etc). This still can be
>>>>> standardized later. As long as the ConfigurationSource SPI is defined,
>>>>> companies still can hook in the logic and level of configuration
>>>>> abstraction they need.
>>>>> * Of course, since not only Strings can be injected, we need some
>>>>> conversion or adapter logic as basically outlined in my blog. Also here we
>>>>> can add a simple SPI and let the details to the RI.
>>>>>
>>>>> Summarizing a
>>>>>
>>>>> * @Configured annotation
>>>>> * some kind of change event
>>>>> * a ConfigurationSource extends Provider<MapString,String>>
>>>>> * a conversion mechanism from String to T.
>>>>>
>>>>> we get a full fledged configuration mechanism that leverages CDI.
>>>>>
>>>>> That would be my idea basically. WDYT? I will try to work that out in
>>>>> more details. Basically it should be implementable even with the CDI
>>>>> mechanism already in place with CDI 1.1.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Anatole
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2014-09-05 16:08 GMT+02:00 Antonio Goncalves <
>>>>> antonio.goncalves at gmail.com<mailto:antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>>:
>>>>> One wise man* once said "EJB was a hype specification, we added too
>>>>> many things to it, it became bloated. The next hype specifications are
>>>>> JAX-RS and CDI, careful with them"
>>>>>
>>>>> Either we get this idea of "parts" right, or CDI will endup being
>>>>> bloated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Antonio
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *David Blevin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Antoine Sabot-Durand <
>>>>> antoine at sabot-durand.net<mailto:antoine at sabot-durand.net>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> You may have followed the rise and fall of the Java Config JSR (
>>>>> http://javaeeconfig.blogspot.ch/2014/09/no-java-ee-configuration-for-ee8-dear.html
>>>>> ).
>>>>> Anatole in CC was leading this initiative and I proposed him to join
>>>>> us and explore if some part of his late-JSR could be done in CDI.
>>>>>
>>>>> I?m mainly thinking of https://issues.jboss.org/browse/CDI-123 or
>>>>> related solution. If we achieve to have a majority of specs to integrate
>>>>> with CDI, our configuration solution would therefore become a configuration
>>>>> system for all spec based on CDI 2.0.
>>>>>
>>>>> Antoine
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> cdi-dev mailing list
>>>>> cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org<mailto:cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>
>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/cdi-dev
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that for all code provided on this list, the provider licenses
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Antonio Goncalves
>>>>> Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
>>>>>
>>>>> Web site<http://www.antoniogoncalves.org> | Twitter<
>>>>> http://twitter.com/agoncal> | LinkedIn<
>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/agoncal> | Pluralsight<
>>>>> http://pluralsight.com/training/Authors/Details/antonio-goncalves> |
>>>>> Paris JUG<http://www.parisjug.org> | Devoxx France<
>>>>> http://www.devoxx.fr>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Anatole Tresch
>>>>> Java Lead Engineer, JSR Spec Lead
>>>>> Gl?rnischweg 10
>>>>> CH - 8620 Wetzikon
>>>>>
>>>>> Switzerland, Europe Zurich, GMT+1
>>>>> Twitter: @atsticks
>>>>> Blogs: http://javaremarkables.blogspot.ch/
>>>>> Google: atsticks
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>>>>> End of cdi-dev Digest, Vol 46, Issue 20
>>>>> ***************************************
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Anatole Tresch*
>>>>> Java Lead Engineer, JSR Spec Lead
>>>>> Glärnischweg 10
>>>>> CH - 8620 Wetzikon
>>>>>
>>>>> *Switzerland, Europe Zurich, GMT+1*
>>>>> *Twitter: @atsticks*
>>>>> *Blogs: **http://javaremarkables.blogspot.ch/
>>>>> <http://javaremarkables.blogspot.ch/>*
>>>>>
>>>>> *Google: atsticksMobile +41-76 344 62 79*
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *Anatole Tresch*
>>>> Java Lead Engineer, JSR Spec Lead
>>>> Glärnischweg 10
>>>> CH - 8620 Wetzikon
>>>>
>>>> *Switzerland, Europe Zurich, GMT+1*
>>>> *Twitter: @atsticks*
>>>> *Blogs: **http://javaremarkables.blogspot.ch/
>>>> <http://javaremarkables.blogspot.ch/>*
>>>>
>>>> *Google: atsticksMobile +41-76 344 62 79 <%2B41-76%20344%2062%2079>*
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *Anatole Tresch*
> Java Lead Engineer, JSR Spec Lead
> Glärnischweg 10
> CH - 8620 Wetzikon
>
> *Switzerland, Europe Zurich, GMT+1*
> *Twitter: @atsticks*
> *Blogs: **http://javaremarkables.blogspot.ch/
> <http://javaremarkables.blogspot.ch/>*
>
> *Google: atsticksMobile +41-76 344 62 79 <%2B41-76%20344%2062%2079>*
>
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