[cdi-dev] Time to start working on CDI lite

Romain Manni-Bucau rmannibucau at gmail.com
Sun Aug 30 15:44:30 EDT 2015 

2015-08-30 21:40 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>:

> Well for whatever reason Antonio sounded rather uneasy about events. If
> it's not size it must be for another reason, but take the idea of
> optionality for things that might have a relatively large footprint in the
> end.
>
>
I feel like we speak about the old Weld - didnt check recent version - and
not the spec itself here. If so this thread should move over weld@ and
openwebbeans@ but spec should really be about usability. One feature which
has a serious impact on size and runtime is proxying/subclassing. Remove it
and you get a different runtime, lighter in term of size, sure, but also
assumptions about classes and environment but this one doesnt seem
important in these discussions so my understanding is CDI is good enough
today for its SE part and things to work on are surely elsewhere at spec
level.


> Werner
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:33 PM, <cdi-dev-request at lists.jboss.org> wrote:
>
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>>    1. Re: Time to start working on CDI lite (Romain Manni-Bucau)
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>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:32:49 +0200
>> From: Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [cdi-dev] Time to start working on CDI lite
>> To: Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>
>> Cc: cdi-dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>
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>> 2015-08-30 21:20 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>:
>>
>> > Well if we found a way to offer some level of modularity and optionality
>> > (despite SE or EE 8 not putting a strong emphasis on either yet) I would
>> > certainly see it as an option. This could keep the size for some apps
>> down
>> > if they use other event systems already.
>> >
>> >
>> strictly yes, in practice the event bus is rarely more than few kb so does
>> it worth the time the EG would spend on it?
>>
>>
>> > Werner
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:11 PM, <cdi-dev-request at lists.jboss.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
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>> >>    1. Re: Time to start working on CDI lite (Romain Manni-Bucau)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:11:24 +0200
>> >> From: Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau at gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: [cdi-dev] Time to start working on CDI lite
>> >> To: Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>
>> >> Cc: cdi-dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>
>> >> Message-ID:
>> >>         <CACLE=
>> >> 7PgKRmCrKiN1+xxLvqCtm3V1AE8D3c7kz_1W_wp1fuxkw at mail.gmail.com>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2015-08-30 20:29 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >> > As there is well-established event handling on the SE and ME side, in
>> >> most
>> >> > cases based on java.util.EventObject, I could imagine CDI events
>> being
>> >> > either outside a "lite" profile or at least optional, should we
>> consider
>> >> > optionality.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> not sure I agree, SE has an event hierarchy but its listener model is
>> not
>> >> as usable as CDI most of the time because of the register side
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Werner
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 6:10 PM, <cdi-dev-request at lists.jboss.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
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>> >> >>
>> >> >> Today's Topics:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>    1. Re: cdi-dev Digest, Vol 57, Issue 33 (Romain Manni-Bucau)
>> >> >>    2. Re: Time to start working on CDI lite (Antonio Goncalves)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Message: 2
>> >> >> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 18:09:41 +0200
>> >> >> From: Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [cdi-dev] Time to start working on CDI lite
>> >> >> To: Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau at gmail.com>
>> >> >> Cc: cdi-dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>
>> >> >> Message-ID:
>> >> >>         <CA+ZZq9-YFcTKuZr=+6v=
>> >> >> wH-w670E++qgBrN36DsToFEidUzenQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For me, a Light version of CDI is clearly the features number.
>> That's
>> >> why
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> don't see events in it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For me, a CDI Lite would just focus on DI. If CDI has @Produces and
>> >> Spring
>> >> >> has @Bean, then it's because 330 lakes this functionality.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <
>> >> >> rmannibucau at gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Lite can have several definition, let's try to list them up if it
>> can
>> >> >> help:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > - binary size: for me until 3M for an app it is "Lite"
>> >> >> > - features number: the whole IoC set of feature is light since you
>> >> >> almost
>> >> >> > always need it, it means you can do lighter but it wouldnt be
>> used -
>> >> >> check
>> >> >> > spring, who uses only spring-ioc and not context or more?
>> >> >> > - features complexity: sure we are not light here but supporting
>> >> scopes
>> >> >> > already breaks "Lite-ness" IMO so not a real issue
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > So my view is CDI "SE" is light enough - as a spec and spec can't
>> >> affect
>> >> >> > implementations so seems the fight is not on the right side to me.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Romain Manni-Bucau
>> >> >> > @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> |  Blog
>> >> >> > <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github
>> >> >> > <https://github.com/rmannibucau> | LinkedIn
>> >> >> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Tomitriber
>> >> >> > <http://www.tomitribe.com>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 2015-08-30 15:57 GMT+02:00 Antonio Goncalves <
>> >> >> antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>
>> >> >> > :
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> It's funny, I feel I'm in Rod Johnson shoes back in Java EE 6
>> where
>> >> he
>> >> >> >> forked 330 because he found CDI was doing too much  ;o)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> For me, "CDI Lite" was just basic dependency injection. The fact
>> >> that
>> >> >> CDI
>> >> >> >> can now run on SE (like JPA....), is good... but for me it has
>> >> nothing
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> do with Light : it's the entire thing that can bootstrap in SE.
>> >> Good.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> So what is Lite for you guys ?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Antonio
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <
>> >> >> >> rmannibucau at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> 2015-08-30 15:22 GMT+02:00 John D. Ament <
>> john.d.ament at gmail.com>:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>> Personally, I'm not in favor of a slimmed down runtime.  It was
>> >> tried
>> >> >> >>>> with EJB, but never implemented properly (most implementations
>> >> that
>> >> >> support
>> >> >> >>>> EJB-lite actually support the entire thing, except for
>> deprecated
>> >> >> stuff).
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>> +1, most of CDI is basic and quickly any light version will miss
>> >> >> events
>> >> >> >>> or other thing - in particular in maintaining micro services
>> from
>> >> >> >>> experience. Size of an implementation can easily be < 1M so not
>> >> sure
>> >> >> it
>> >> >> >>> would bring anything. Only important point is what Antoine
>> started
>> >> to
>> >> >> do ie
>> >> >> >>> ensuring EE and SE parts are clearly identified and split in the
>> >> spec.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>> I think if we define SE properly we won't have a need for this.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> John
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:07 AM Antonio Goncalves <
>> >> >> >>>> antonio.goncalves at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> @Antoine, so which content do you see in CDI Lite ? Are you
>> sure
>> >> >> about
>> >> >> >>>>> events ?
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> I'm in favor of a "fatter" 330 that would have :
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>    - @Inject : already there
>> >> >> >>>>>    - @Qualifier : already there
>> >> >> >>>>>    -
>> >> >> >>>>> *Producers and disposers *
>> >> >> >>>>>    -
>> >> >> >>>>> *Programatic lookup *
>> >> >> >>>>>    - *Java SE Bootstrap*
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> When you say "*The goal here is not to propose a new EE
>> profile
>> >> but
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> >>>>> subspec*", 330 could already be seen as a subspec. If you put
>> >> events
>> >> >> >>>>> apparts, what would be missing in this list in your point of
>> >> view ?
>> >> >> And
>> >> >> >>>>> what obstacles do you see in archieving this ?
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> To boostrap CDI we have a CDIProvider, why not having an
>> >> >> >>>>> InjectionProvider just to bootstrap 330 (then, CDIProvider
>> could
>> >> >> extend
>> >> >> >>>>> InjectionProvider, so it bootstraps the all thing) ?
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Antonio
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Antoine Sabot-Durand <
>> >> >> >>>>> antoine at sabot-durand.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>> Yes Arjan, I think it's the first reason. We really should
>> work
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> >>>>>> them to understand what should be added to CDI 2.0 to have it
>> >> as a
>> >> >> first
>> >> >> >>>>>> citizen DI in their spec.
>> >> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>> Le sam. 29 ao?t 2015 ? 23:15, arjan tijms <
>> >> arjan.tijms at gmail.com>
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> >>>>>> ?crit :
>> >> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Antonio Goncalves
>> >> >> >>>>>>> <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>>>> > I remember talking with the JAX-RS guys (Java EE), years
>> ago
>> >> >> (back
>> >> >> >>>>>>> in EE6),
>> >> >> >>>>>>> > and their answer for not adopting CDI was "too heavy".
>> >> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>>> I can't find an exact reference anymore, but I somewhat
>> >> remember
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> >>>>>>> one of the reasons was also simply that CDI as a general
>> >> solution
>> >> >> >>>>>>> finished late in Java EE 6, while JAX-RS finished earlier
>> and
>> >> had
>> >> >> all
>> >> >> >>>>>>> the work for their own DI solution already done.
>> >> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> --
>> >> >> >>>>> Antonio Goncalves
>> >> >> >>>>> Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Web site <http://www.antoniogoncalves.org> | Twitter
>> >> >> >>>>> <http://twitter.com/agoncal> | LinkedIn
>> >> >> >>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/agoncal> | Pluralsight
>> >> >> >>>>> <
>> >> http://pluralsight.com/training/Authors/Details/antonio-goncalves>
>> >> >> | Paris
>> >> >> >>>>> JUG <http://www.parisjug.org> | Devoxx France <
>> >> http://www.devoxx.fr
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >>>>> cdi-dev mailing list
>> >> >> >>>>> cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org
>> >> >> >>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/cdi-dev
>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >> >> >>>>> Note that for all code provided on this list, the provider
>> >> licenses
>> >> >> >>>>> the code under the Apache License, Version 2 (
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>> other
>> >> >> ideas
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>> >> >> >>>>> intellectual property rights inherent in such information.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >>>> cdi-dev mailing list
>> >> >> >>>> cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org
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>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Antonio Goncalves
>> >> >> >> Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Web site <http://www.antoniogoncalves.org> | Twitter
>> >> >> >> <http://twitter.com/agoncal> | LinkedIn
>> >> >> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/agoncal> | Pluralsight
>> >> >> >> <
>> http://pluralsight.com/training/Authors/Details/antonio-goncalves>
>> >> |
>> >> >> Paris
>> >> >> >> JUG <http://www.parisjug.org> | Devoxx France <
>> http://www.devoxx.fr
>> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Antonio Goncalves
>> >> >> Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Web site <http://www.antoniogoncalves.org> | Twitter
>> >> >> <http://twitter.com/agoncal> | LinkedIn <
>> >> >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/agoncal> |
>> >> >> Pluralsight
>> >> >> <http://pluralsight.com/training/Authors/Details/antonio-goncalves>
>> |
>> >> >> Paris
>> >> >> JUG <http://www.parisjug.org> | Devoxx France <http://www.devoxx.fr
>> >
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