[cdi-dev] Time to start working on CDI lite
Romain Manni-Bucau
rmannibucau at gmail.com
Wed Sep 2 07:26:07 EDT 2015
Le 2 sept. 2015 12:55, "Mark Struberg" <struberg at yahoo.de> a écrit :
>
> Oki, sorry, was too unprecise.
>
> Yes, you can use compile time annotations. But you cannot use runtime
annotations in Android afaik.
> Thus all the parsing, AnnotatedType stuff, etc would basically be pretty
moot, right?
>
You can compute it at compile time. The point being it is ourside cdispec.
> +1 for reaching out to the AeroGear team btw.
>
> LieGrue,
> strub
>
>
>
> > Am 02.09.2015 um 10:30 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau at gmail.com
>:
> >
> >
> > 2015-09-02 10:22 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>:
> > >Forget about all the Android area for now. In android there are not
even Annotations afaik. And Android is NOT Java. The runtime and all the
bytecode stuff we do here wont work that easily. So we would get rid of
TONS of neat stuff a >JavaSE app most of the times would LOVE to have.
> >
> > This was still from Square's time, but shows at least @Qualifier or
@Module annotations (aside from the obvious @Override) so it looks like
some annotations do work for Android
> > https://github.com/square/dagger/tree/master/examples/android-simple
> >
> > Can't speak for JBoss or Red Hat here, but at least their AeroGear
native libraries for Android https://aerogear.org/android/ speak a rather
clear language, and should any of CDI lite be usable to both Java SE and
Android I am sure, AeroGear would happily offer it there;-)
> >
> >
> > Android supports all annotations you want while it doesnt hit the
device but the codegen phase during the *build* (
http://androidannotations.org/ for instance). That is what does dagger
AFAIK.
> >
> > Werner
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 10:04 AM, <cdi-dev-request at lists.jboss.org>
wrote:
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Time to start working on CDI lite (Mark Struberg)
> > 2. F2F more information regarding the location (Antoine Sabot-Durand)
> > 3. [JBoss JIRA] (CDI-556) JavaEE component classes injection
> > support mode (Emily Jiang (JIRA))
> > 4. ? Lies Deine Nachricht, bevor sie gel?scht wird! (Notme)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:30:49 +0200
> > From: Mark Struberg <struberg at yahoo.de>
> > Subject: Re: [cdi-dev] Time to start working on CDI lite
> > To: Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>
> > Cc: cdi-dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>
> > Message-ID: <19E62B90-B7E2-40F6-9E69-139D8AB3D92C at yahoo.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> > >
> > > I don't see Events in a "Lite" version because the other DI
frameworks don't use them. A "fatter" 330 with producers, programmatic
lookup and bootstrap, could be "easily" implemented by Spring, Guice... If
we leave events in a Lite version, then it won?t be the case, and Weld and
OWB will be the only two implementations.
> >
> > No, it?s not an impl thing at all but all the Extension events and it?s
usage are specified deep in the CDI spec.
> > Of course the impls could use different code parts for Extension events
and ?user events? but you still would need an event bus OR you would get
rid of Extensions alltogether. But that would be pretty insane imo ;)
> >
> > There is also no need to go further in the JSR-330-only area. All CDI
containers must pass the atinject TCK and thus are fully certified JSR-330
containers as well. Add guice, Spring, picocontainer, etc to this. There is
really no need to go down even further in this road imo. We are not here
for world domination. We don?t need to do _every_ situation. Let?s instead
do OUR main goal really well.
> >
> >
> > > If you take back Antoine sentence "This would allow using CDI in
constrained environment like mobile or embedded devices", then I don't
think events would fit here.
> >
> >
> > Forget about all the Android area for now. In android there are not
even Annotations afaik. And Android is NOT Java. The runtime and all the
bytecode stuff we do here wont work that easily. So we would get rid of
TONS of neat stuff a JavaSE app most of the times would LOVE to have.
> >
> >
> > IF we say that CDI-lite is targetting android then this is fine as
well. But then we aim for a TOTALLY different goal! This would not even be
useful in a SE. If you really like to have a lightweight-as-possible DI
container, such a project already exists. It is called Apache Avalon [1]
and got written in 1999. So it even predates Spring for about 5 years?
> >
> > LieGrue,
> > strub
> >
> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Avalon
> >
> >
> >
> > > Am 31.08.2015 um 09:57 schrieb Antonio Goncalves <
antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > I don't see Events in a "Lite" version because the other DI
frameworks don't use them. A "fatter" 330 with producers, programmatic
lookup and bootstrap, could be "easily" implemented by Spring, Guice... If
we leave events in a Lite version, then it won't be the case, and Weld and
OWB will be the only two implementations.
> > >
> > > For me, a Lite version would just be about DI. If Weld uses events
internally to archieve basic DI, well, it's just an implementation
decision, not a spec. I would not even try to standardize the way @Inject
works (like Romain said, @Inject doesn't work the same in Weld or Spring),
let's leave it like this. If you take back Antoine sentence "This would
allow using CDI in constrained environment like mobile or embedded
devices", then I don't think events would fit here.
> > >
> > > Antonio
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Mark Struberg <struberg at yahoo.de>
wrote:
> > > > For me, a Light version of CDI is clearly the features number.
That's why I don't see events in it.
> > >
> > > We did discuss this last year on the f2f meeting. The problem lies
within our Extension mechanism. Without events you also need to drop the
Extension mechanism. And to be honest, this is THE major hit in all CDI?
> > > Sorry to be the bad guy busting all those ideas. I really don?t want
to, but better now than too late down the road ;)
> > >
> > > It?s really tricky as many features are heavily based on each other.
E.g. by removing scanning you could get rid of javassist/asm/etc ? nope, we
also have our class proxies which need bytecode tinkering. So remove
interceptors and decorators too? Well yea, but we still have normalscoping
-> what is left? basically spring prototype and singleton. Hmm. that?s not
that much compared to full CDI. And all that for only 200kByte?
> > > (Btw we also discussed generating the bytecode classes at build time,
but then we still miss the dynamics we get from Extensions, e.g. PAT adding
an interceptor annotation)
> > > Just to give you a rough idea how this all works together when it
comes to implementation details?
> > > Please feel free to ask Jozef and me for further infos on
?dependencies?.
> >
> > >
> > > LieGrue,
> > > strub
> > >
> > >
> > > > Am 30.08.2015 um 18:09 schrieb Antonio Goncalves <
antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > For me, a Light version of CDI is clearly the features number.
That's why I don't see events in it.
> > > >
> > > > For me, a CDI Lite would just focus on DI. If CDI has @Produces and
Spring has @Bean, then it's because 330 lakes this functionality.
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <
rmannibucau at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Lite can have several definition, let's try to list them up if it
can help:
> > > >
> > > > - binary size: for me until 3M for an app it is "Lite"
> > > > - features number: the whole IoC set of feature is light since you
almost always need it, it means you can do lighter but it wouldnt be used -
check spring, who uses only spring-ioc and not context or more?
> > > > - features complexity: sure we are not light here but supporting
scopes already breaks "Lite-ness" IMO so not a real issue
> > > >
> > > > So my view is CDI "SE" is light enough - as a spec and spec can't
affect implementations so seems the fight is not on the right side to me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Romain Manni-Bucau
> > > > @rmannibucau | Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Tomitriber
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-30 15:57 GMT+02:00 Antonio Goncalves <
antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>:
> > > > It's funny, I feel I'm in Rod Johnson shoes back in Java EE 6 where
he forked 330 because he found CDI was doing too much ;o)
> > > >
> > > > For me, "CDI Lite" was just basic dependency injection. The fact
that CDI can now run on SE (like JPA....), is good... but for me it has
nothing to do with Light : it's the entire thing that can bootstrap in SE.
Good.
> > > >
> > > > So what is Lite for you guys ?
> > > >
> > > > Antonio
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <
rmannibucau at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > 2015-08-30 15:22 GMT+02:00 John D. Ament <john.d.ament at gmail.com>:
> > > > Personally, I'm not in favor of a slimmed down runtime. It was
tried with EJB, but never implemented properly (most implementations that
support EJB-lite actually support the entire thing, except for deprecated
stuff).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > +1, most of CDI is basic and quickly any light version will miss
events or other thing - in particular in maintaining micro services from
experience. Size of an implementation can easily be < 1M so not sure it
would bring anything. Only important point is what Antoine started to do ie
ensuring EE and SE parts are clearly identified and split in the spec.
> > > >
> > > > I think if we define SE properly we won't have a need for this.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:07 AM Antonio Goncalves <
antonio.goncalves at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > @Antoine, so which content do you see in CDI Lite ? Are you sure
about events ?
> > > >
> > > > I'm in favor of a "fatter" 330 that would have :
> > > > ? @Inject : already there
> > > > ? @Qualifier : already there
> > > > ? Producers and disposers
> > > > ? Programatic lookup
> > > > ? Java SE Bootstrap
> > > > When you say "The goal here is not to propose a new EE profile but
a subspec", 330 could already be seen as a subspec. If you put events
apparts, what would be missing in this list in your point of view ? And
what obstacles do you see in archieving this ?
> > > >
> > > > To boostrap CDI we have a CDIProvider, why not having an
InjectionProvider just to bootstrap 330 (then, CDIProvider could extend
InjectionProvider, so it bootstraps the all thing) ?
> > > >
> > > > Antonio
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Antoine Sabot-Durand <
antoine at sabot-durand.net> wrote:
> > > > Yes Arjan, I think it's the first reason. We really should work
with them to understand what should be added to CDI 2.0 to have it as a
first citizen DI in their spec.
> > > >
> > > > Le sam. 29 ao?t 2015 ? 23:15, arjan tijms <arjan.tijms at gmail.com> a
?crit :
> >
> > > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Antonio Goncalves
> > > > <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I remember talking with the JAX-RS guys (Java EE), years ago
(back in EE6),
> > > > > and their answer for not adopting CDI was "too heavy".
> > > >
> > > > I can't find an exact reference anymore, but I somewhat remember
that
> > > > one of the reasons was also simply that CDI as a general solution
> > > > finished late in Java EE 6, while JAX-RS finished earlier and had
all
> > > > the work for their own DI solution already done.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Antonio Goncalves
> > > > Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
> > > >
> > > > Web site | Twitter | LinkedIn | Pluralsight | Paris JUG | Devoxx
France
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > cdi-dev mailing list
> > > > cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org
> > > > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/cdi-dev
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Antonio Goncalves
> > > > Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
> > > >
> > > > Web site | Twitter | LinkedIn | Pluralsight | Paris JUG | Devoxx
France
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Antonio Goncalves
> > > > Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
> > > >
> > > > Web site | Twitter | LinkedIn | Pluralsight | Paris JUG | Devoxx
France
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > cdi-dev mailing list
> > > > cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org
> > > > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/cdi-dev
> > > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Antonio Goncalves
> > > Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
> > >
> > > Web site | Twitter | LinkedIn | Pluralsight | Paris JUG | Devoxx
France
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 12:04:12 +0000
> > From: Antoine Sabot-Durand <antoine at sabot-durand.net>
> > Subject: [cdi-dev] F2F more information regarding the location
> > To: cdi-dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>
> > Message-ID:
> > <
CABu-YBTubzLZ3+SRq++dJ+fM21_rodTsL6zK_c-GPr7TsDMpGQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I've updated the F2F sheet :
> >
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Frlfv39Nixalt783dx6Yv7rvYWuFcoumlzZa4W5F8dw/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > The tab location contains info for the event location and a suggested
hotel
> > nearby.
> >
> > Remember the community meeting will be on Friday 25th and Saturday 26th
> >
> > Antoine
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 13:20:05 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: "Emily Jiang (JIRA)" <issues at jboss.org>
> > Subject: [cdi-dev] [JBoss JIRA] (CDI-556) JavaEE component classes
> > injection support mode
> > To: cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org
> > Message-ID:
> > <JIRA.12583475.1441127998000.11694.1441128005252 at Atlassian.JIRA>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > Emily Jiang created CDI-556:
> > -------------------------------
> >
> > Summary: JavaEE component classes injection support mode
> > Key: CDI-556
> > URL: https://issues.jboss.org/browse/CDI-556
> > Project: CDI Specification Issues
> > Issue Type: Clarification
> > Components: Java EE integration
> > Affects Versions: 1.2.Final
> > Environment: all
> > Reporter: Emily Jiang
> >
> >
> > >From CDI 1.2 spec,
> > An archive which:
> > ? contains a beans.xml file with the bean-discovery-mode of none, or,
> > ? contains an extension and no beans.xml file
> > is not a bean archive.
> >
> > Do JavaEE component classes support injections in the non bean
archives? The spec is not clear on this.
> >
> > Jozef said:
> > Java EE spec states in "EE.5.2.5
> > Annotations and Injection":
> >
> > "The component classes listed in Table EE.5-1 with support level
Standard all support Java EE resource injection, as well as PostConstruct
and PreDestroy callbacks. In addition, if CDI is enabled?which it is by
default?these classes also support CDI injection, as described in Section
EE.5.24, Support for Dependency Injection, and the use of interceptors."
> >
> > However, it is not clear what "if CDI is enabled" means. One can argue
that "CDI is enabled" if the component class resides in a bean archive. The
other interpretation (the one I personally prefer) might be that "CDI is
enabled" if a CDI container is initialized for the application (i.e.
there's at least one CDI bean archive).
> >
> > The CDI spec needs to be clear on this.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA
> > (v6.3.15#6346)
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 08:03:57 +0000
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