[hibernate-dev] Chat migration - D minus 115 until the death of HipChat

Thu Dec 6 03:54:06 EST 2018

I'm fine with it.

Am 06.12.2018 um 08:52 schrieb Yoann Rodiere:
> The WildFly team is moving from Slack to Zulip, because Zulip seems to be
> the only solution that is free, provides unlimited history, and allows
> unlimited users even in private rooms (for OSS projects, at least). Gitter
> has all that, except unlimited users, as we are limited to 25 people per
> private room.
>
> You can join them here: https://wildfly.zulipchat.com/
>
> Back to our solution... We are now 71 days away from the decommissioning of
> HipChat. *Is everyone happy with Gitter?* Do you see a strong reason to
> keep looking for another solution?
>
> For my part, I noticed problems with the web client, in particular with
> notifications, which are sub-standard, but with the desktop client
> everything seems to work fine. It's simple, but it does the job.
>
> Yoann Rodière
> Hibernate NoORM Team
> yoann at hibernate.org
>
>
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:
>
>> On top of not being able to add more than 25 people to a private room,
>> there's another limitation of Gitter that Fabio just noticed: the chat
>> history for 1-to-1 conversations is very limited. In our case, we can only
>> see 2 days back, and there's no concept of archives like there is in rooms.
>>
>> Meanwhile, the WildFly team is giving up on Slack because of the very
>> limited size of history in free plans. They are investigating Zulip,
>> RocketChat and MatterMost in particular. Maybe let's see what they end up
>> choosing and why?
>>
>> Yoann Rodière
>> Hibernate NoORM Team
>> yoann at hibernate.org
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 11:33, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 08:49, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it might be
>>>> too successful as well
>>>>
>>>> Ok. Well, I guess we'll see. As I mentioned above, I don't think forcing
>>>> people to have a GitHub account will be very effective, but I can't suggest
>>>> a perfect solution either. Bots answering with a few links (documentation,
>>>> etc.) to the first message of each user come to mind, but that could be
>>>> considered rude, so I wouldn't do that unless the traffic becomes
>>>> unmanageable. Other solutions include kicking out "spammers" (but that
>>>> doesn't work if it's many users asking a single question), or making the
>>>> -dev rooms invite-only and only checking the user rooms once in a while
>>>> (might work if Gitter sends emails when your are mentioned while offline).
>>>> So, yeah, in short: I don't really know.
>>>>
>>>>> More just accountability.  But if some form of login in needed to use
>>>> Gitter, that's enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was "allow
>>>> anonymous", which I wanted to avoid.
>>>>
>>>> Then it should be fine: anonymous access apparently only allows to read
>>>> messages. Login through GitLab, GitHub or Twitter is necessary in order to
>>>> start posting new messages.
>>>>
>>>> Yoann Rodière
>>>> Hibernate NoORM Team
>>>> yoann at hibernate.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 19:34, Steve Ebersole <steve at hibernate.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For me its not so much about "the right kind of people".  More just
>>>>> accountability.  But if some form of login in needed to use Gitter, that's
>>>>> enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was "allow anonymous", which
>>>>> I wanted to avoid.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:41 AM Sanne Grinovero <sanne at hibernate.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 17:27, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't see why we should force people to have a GitHub account,
>>>>>> considering there are other means of logging into Gitter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As to getting the right type of people, I'm not sure it's relevant.
>>>>>> Most people are likely to have one, and those who don't are likely to not
>>>>>> have one for political reasons (think free software extremists) rather than
>>>>>> because they aren't tech savvy enough: while the "hibernate" naming might
>>>>>> confuse users looking for information about grizzly bears, I doubt my
>>>>>> grandmother, my 7-year-old nephew or even my non-software-engineer of a
>>>>>> wife would end up on Gitter by mistake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well since that's obvious, clearly I was referring to a different way
>>>>>> of cathegorizing people joining@ not by age or expertise in technology
>>>>>> but in having reasonable expectations and willing to do some research
>>>>>> before bothering us all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You probably weren't around yet, but Hibernate has had hard times in
>>>>>> which it was "victim of its own success": just too many
>>>>>> kinda-interested people making a ton of basic questions that could be
>>>>>> easily solved otherwise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some "barriers" we have in place have made it manageable; of course I
>>>>>> can't tell if it's all merit of the barriers of entry or just people
>>>>>> coming in lower volumes with better intentions, but I'm confident that
>>>>>> some of the barriers we have have helped to keep some sanity (e.g.
>>>>>> login on #hibernate-dev on IRC requiring an account).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it might be
>>>>>> too successful as well.  But I guess we'll see, or let's use a very
>>>>>> bad chat platform so to keep people from coming :P
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yoann Rodière
>>>>>>> Hibernate NoORM Team
>>>>>>> yoann at hibernate.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 18:02, Sanne Grinovero <sanne at hibernate.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 16:02, Steve Ebersole <steve at hibernate.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> What is it a conscious decision to not require a GitHub account
>>>>>> to join these rooms?  I just noticed that is a toggle-option in the room's
>>>>>> settings also.
>>>>>>>> I don't remember. We created these rooms as an experiment in 2014..
>>>>>>>> Yoann created some more rooms recently.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Should we enforce people to have a Github account? I'd like that, I
>>>>>>>> think it would better nudge towards getting the right type of people
>>>>>>>> to join.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Sanne
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM Guillaume Smet <
>>>>>> guillaume.smet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Sanne Grinovero <
>>>>>> sanne at hibernate.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If one wants a lot of features then clearly only Slack is the
>>>>>> way to
>>>>>>>>>>> go. Not saying we should go with Slack, just that we'll need
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>>>> patient and we'll always be short of some features - if that's
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> acceptable then only Slack will make you happy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TBH, I don't care about fancy features. Gitter is OK for me but
>>>>>> yeah not
>>>>>>>>>> having sound is really annoying.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I might miss notifications from time to time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In any case, it will mostly be a problem for you all if you ping
>>>>>> me :).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> BTW the issue you linked to suggests the native clients don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> this specific problem.. might want to try that?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I prefer to have it in the browser where I do most of my
>>>>>> interactions with
>>>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And AFAIK, Yoann wrote they were only packaged as deb (and not
>>>>>> very excited
>>>>>>>>>> about compiling it).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BTW, tbh, I'm a bit worried GitLab has only one dev on it if
>>>>>> they want to
>>>>>>>>>> become a player in this area. They certainly have some work to
>>>>>> do to catch
>>>>>>>>>> up with others.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
>>>>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
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