<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Here's an excellent resource that I recommend to anyone that want to chime into this discussion:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/">http://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/</a></div><div><br></div><div>Read through the core principles outlined in this article. Then compare the tools we have to each other and you'll begin to the see the different value propositions.</div><div><br></div><div>/Heiko</div><br><div><div>On May 18, 2012, at 4:01 PM, Heiko Braun wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><br><br>Thanks for the explanation Stan. The web console uses a different paradigm then the other tools, and it does so on purpose. The result of what you describe would basically build on the "tree" paradigm and more or less expose the management functionality like the CLI and it's bigger cousin do. But it targets different persona and thus other needs. <br><br>The console provides an interim information layer, that provides alternate conceptual views, that go beyond "trees". The biggest difference towards the other tools is that it tries to facilitate understanding of the underlying model. <br><br>This includes arrangement, grouping and exposure of the underlying information aligned with the users tasks. You think of it too much in technical terms. Your approach is a valid one for people that can be considered "power users". Users that know the model. For them a "tree" paradigm work works well. <br><br>The CLI GUI is a hybrid, but only serves former CLI users well. For them it might be an enhancement. But it's not serving the needs of the less experienced developer or administrator. <br><br>A good comparison would probably be a data management tool. You can provide direct SQL access to the data or some web based interface that's much closer to business domain. The AS7 web console would be the later. <br><br><blockquote type="cite">From my experience, people perceive the web interface as being simple and easy to get started. But designing for "simple" isn't easy. And it comes at a certain price. In our case we did sacrifice development time for user experience. <br></blockquote><br>Long story short: The management tools serve different audiences. Each audience brings their own experience, knowledge and skills. Building the web console on same paradigms the CLI tools would eliminate the for having it in the first place. <br><br>/Heiko<br><br>On May 18, 2012, at 1:53 PM, <a href="mailto:ssilvert@redhat.com">ssilvert@redhat.com</a> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">On 5/18/2012 5:56 AM, Heiko Braun wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Stan,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">you've said that you think the console project was going in the wrong direction.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Can you elaborate on that? <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Regards, Heiko<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I didn't say it was going in the wrong direction. That's not how I<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">would put it. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I think the project was architecturally wrong from the very beginning. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I know that's a strong statement and again I want to say that I'm proud<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of what we accomplished. Hard work and clever programming can make up<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for a lot of flaws. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">We couldn't be expected to make all the right choices at a time when we<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">didn't yet understand the management model that was still being<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">developed. And it is our misuse of the management model that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">constitutes the fundamental architectural flaw.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I think this is best explained with an example, so I'll give you the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">same example I gave to Bruno yesterday. Open CLI GUI and navigate to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">/subsystem=logging/logger=*. Right-click on the logger=* node and<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">select add. There you will see a fairly complex dialog with four types<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">of widgets. Also, the drop-downs are filled in with the proper values<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and the required fields are marked appropriately. You can hover over<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">any field label to get context-sensitive help.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I didn't write a single line of code to generate the "add logger"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">dialog. It was all built from the metadata in the management model. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">This has tremendous implications on development time. Getting CLI GUI<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to a point where it could do all this for every AS7 resource took about<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">two weeks. Yet, to develop the ability to manage just the logging<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">subsystem in the web console took months. And when the logging<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">subsystem changed on the back end I had to rewrite the front end over<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">again.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Clearly, we are not leveraging the management model properly.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I could go on and on about other technical issues. I'm sure we can get<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to that in due time, but I've written enough for now.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The last thing I want to make clear is that I'm not trying to replace<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the web console with CLI GUI. We need a web console. But the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">comparative ease with which functionality can be developed in CLI GUI<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">constitutes low hanging fruit that can't be ignored. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I do have some ideas about how we can work together to leverage both<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">platforms in a mutually beneficial way. Because I think code speaks<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">louder than words, I'm working on a demo that shows how both platforms<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">might work together. I'm hoping to have something ready to show late<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">next week.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Stan<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>jboss-as7-dev mailing list<br><a href="mailto:jboss-as7-dev@lists.jboss.org">jboss-as7-dev@lists.jboss.org</a><br>https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-as7-dev<br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>