<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">How about moving away from URLs to URIs or EPRs (WS-Addressing Endpoint References)? We use EPRs, which are basically URIs with some additional meta-data (which can be null if you want). URLs are ok and my JBossESB 5.0 prototype runs on current Remoting and does a mapping from EPR down to URL when it needs to, but they are pretty limiting. Plus URL doesn't support SFTP or FTPS.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Mark.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On 19 Jun 2007, at 14:00, Bill Burke wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The URL for JMS would look real ugly too.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>New URL protocols are dangerous too as you may not be able to override the JDK's URL Handler (because it can only be set once!).<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I ran into this problem with Tomcat 5.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Mark Little wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">One thing I was discussing with Tom at the start of the year was ESB using Remoting for its transport layer. Unfortunately there isn't a complete solution as it currently stands, because we have asynchronous (one-way) messaging transport requirements that cover more transports than Tom thought Remoting could deal with (then), including: FTP, database, email, JMS (that one is critical for us but causes a circularity with the current implementation if we plug in JBoss Messaging, which is built on Remoting ;-)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oh and reliable delivery is something that should be optional IMO.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Mark.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On 19 Jun 2007, at 00:25, Ron Sigal wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hi Tim,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Excellent.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>This is just the kind of feedback I was hoping for.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>We definitely want Remoting 3.0 to satisfy the needs of JBM.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>You're our best critics. :-)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-Ron</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Tim Fox wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Ron Sigal wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Scott M Stark wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The main problem for me with the TowardsGreaterSymmetryInRemoting page</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">is that its not talking about a base asynch message oriented</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">architecture. Much of the current asymmetry's is due to the rpc oriented</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">api. If you flip this around to have a base asynch message view, all</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">communication is handling of these messages. RPC with callbacks is</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">setting up blocking message handlers. Symmetry from a higher level</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Client api is also not a requirement in my view. By definition a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">callback is an unpredictable event/out of band msg with respect to some</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">rpc call returning a value. The use of client and server are also by</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">definition asymmetric and map to msg senders/receivers. We need to start</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">from the bottom and move back up to the rpc api in order to be able to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">talk about what the 3.0 version of Client should look like.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Actually, a "base asynch message oriented architecture" was just what I was trying to get at.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>While Remoting should continue to support the rpc model, the Connection.receive() and Connection.send() methods that I mentioned are intended to support asynchronous message sending and receiving.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Does Connection.receive() block until it receives a message()?</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Remoting 3.0 needs to support non-blocking semantics too to cope with very large numbers of connection (We can't have a thread per connection blocking on receive()).</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">What you probably need is some kind of select() functionality (see the Java NIO API or unix select() and poll()) where you can register for events - in this case a single (or small group of) thread(s) would register for events on multiple "channels" and are woken up when an evens matches the selector.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You probably also want to build in support for aynchronous IO via callbacks - in this case, you don't even have thread(s) waiting on select() but register some kind of callback handler and the OS calls your handler directly - this can occur with less context switching than select().</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Also, while it's true that client and server roles are inherently asymmetric, actors can play multiple roles (like Peter Sellers).<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>In Remoting, for example, callbacks (in push mode) are handled by clients on the server side talking to servers on the client side.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I think the same thing would be conceptually simpler with a "connection" abstraction that mirrors a real TCP connection: it's true that there are client and server sockets, but once the connection has been created, there can be senders and receivers on both sides.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The architecture also needs to be layered such that you can plug into</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">low level message creation for the case of needing to control the on the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">wire format of these messages.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">We are brining on the MINA lead, Trustin Lee, so we will need to look at</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">how</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The idea of stacks of marshallers and unmarshallers in Remoting has been floating around for a while, and Tom did some initial work in that direction.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I'm thinking that's where the layered message handling will live.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I've been meaning to write a second document on the subject, but, in fact, MINA has a pretty flexible and sophisticated framework for chains of message handlers, which looks like a good match for what we want.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>As you say, we need to understand how MINA and Remoting will work together.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Anil Saldhana wrote:</DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></P> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Ron,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Most of it may already be present.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Here is what I am thinking:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">a) Pluggable mechanism to do authentication at either ends of the pipes</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(SASL)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">b) Pluggable ways to secure the payload that passes through the pipes.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Regards,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Anil</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Ron Sigal wrote:</DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></P> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">There have been various attempts to get some discussion going about</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the features desired for the next generation of Remoting, and so far I</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">think the buzz has broken the -80 db level.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>I'm trying again with the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">wiki page at</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://wiki.jboss.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=TowardsGreaterSymmetryInRemoting">http://wiki.jboss.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=TowardsGreaterSymmetryInRemoting</A>. We in the Remoting group (i.e., me in the Remoting group) would like</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to hear from the Remoting stakeholders about what features would make</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Remoting more usable for you.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Of course, I could just go ahead and</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">write fun stuff.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>:-)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">-Ron</DIV><P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; 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margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">JBoss, a Division of Red Hat</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"My company's smarter than your company."</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">jboss-development mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">jboss-development@lists.jboss.org <<A href="mailto:jboss-development@lists.jboss.org">mailto:jboss-development@lists.jboss.org</A>></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-development">https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-development</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">----</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Mark Little</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">mlittle@redhat.com <<A href="mailto:mlittle@redhat.com">mailto:mlittle@redhat.com</A>></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">JBoss, a Division of Red Hat</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Registered Address: Red Hat UK Ltd, Amberley Place, 107-111 Peascod Street, Windsor, Berkshire, SI4 1TE, United Kingdom. Registered in UK and Wales under Company Registration No. 3798903 Directors: Michael Cunningham (USA), Charlie Peters (USA) and David Owens (Ireland)</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">jboss-development mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:jboss-development@lists.jboss.org">jboss-development@lists.jboss.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-development">https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-development</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Bill Burke</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">JBoss, a division of Red Hat Inc.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">jboss-development mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:jboss-development@lists.jboss.org">jboss-development@lists.jboss.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-development">https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-development</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>----</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Mark Little</DIV><DIV><A href="mailto:mlittle@redhat.com">mlittle@redhat.com</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>JBoss, a Division of Red Hat</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Registered Address: Red Hat UK Ltd, Amberley Place, 107-111 Peascod Street, Windsor, Berkshire, </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">SI4 1TE, United Kingdom. </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Registered in UK and Wales under Company Registration No. 3798903 </DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Directors: Michael Cunningham (USA), Charlie Peters (USA) and David Owens (Ireland)</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>