<div dir="ltr"><div>CEE is fine with anything that gives our customers a usable end result.<br><br></div><div>Thanks,<br></div><div><br></div>Rick<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Nick Boldt <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com" target="_blank">nboldt@redhat.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Why wouldn't it be a solution?<br>
<br>
devstudio includes vpe. vpe depends on xulrunner. xulrunner needs<br>
GTK2. GTK2 on RHEL7 is not supported.<br>
<br>
Therefore devstudio rpm shouldn't include vpe/xulrunner/gtk2. QED. :D<br>
<br>
What if we provide two different install paths?<br>
<br>
a) rpm installs everything in devstudio except vpe/xulrunner (supported config)<br>
<br>
b) users who want vpe can then install it by hand from the devstudio<br>
*update site*, plus the 4 dependency RPMs, and enabling GTK3=0 to<br>
force Eclipse to run in unsupported GTK2 mode.<br>
<br>
I would also be open to the idea of building a quasi-supported ("Tech<br>
Preview") rh-eclipse 46-devstudio-vpe rpm, which provides the<br>
vpe/xulrunner and requires the 4 dependencies. It could maybe even<br>
enable GTK3=0 (?) on startup of Eclipse, provided it includes an<br>
eclipse.sh which would enable that property before starting the<br>
eclipse executable.<br>
<br>
This new rpm would of course require buy in from GSS and QE. Adding<br>
Len and Rick to cc:.<br>
<br>
N<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 10:53 AM, Alexey Kazakov <<a href="mailto:alkazako@redhat.com">alkazako@redhat.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 09/29/2016 06:37 AM, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
>>><br>
>>> From: "Alexey Kazakov" <<a href="mailto:alkazako@redhat.com">alkazako@redhat.com</a>><br>
>>> To: "Ilya Buziuk" <<a href="mailto:ibuziuk@redhat.com">ibuziuk@redhat.com</a>>, "Aleksandar Kurtakov"<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a>>, "jbosstools-dev jbosstools-dev"<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:jbosstools-dev@lists.jboss.org">jbosstools-dev@lists.jboss.<wbr>org</a>><br>
>>> Cc: "Max Rydahl Andersen" <<a href="mailto:manderse@redhat.com">manderse@redhat.com</a>>, "Nick Boldt"<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com">nboldt@redhat.com</a>>, "Leo Ufimtsev"<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:lufimtse@redhat.com">lufimtse@redhat.com</a>><br>
>>> Sent: Thursday, 29 September, 2016 4:33:00 PM<br>
>>> Subject: Re: Do we still need Xulrunner in Devstudio?<br>
>>><br>
>>> It looks like I missed some discussion here. So, I'm repeating my<br>
>>> question, why would we like to remove Xulrunner and/or deprecate VPE?<br>
>><br>
>> The discussion started from xulrunner being usable only in GTK2 env when<br>
>> on RHEL 7 we support only GTK3. It would be really nice to not have<br>
>> recommendations to use GTK2 for using VPE as it would cause issues for other<br>
>> plugins.<br>
><br>
><br>
> OK. So, removing VPE is not a solution for this anyway ;)<br>
><br>
> Thanks.<br>
><br>
><br>
>><br>
>>> Just want to understand if there is some real problem and our Xulrunner<br>
>>> stuff blocks us to solve it or this is just for cleanness sake.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Thanks.<br>
>>><br>
>>> On 09/29/2016 03:28 AM, Ilya Buziuk wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Hi, Aleksandr<br>
>>>> Alexey has already moved this discussion to jbosstools-dev.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Unfortunately, I do not have Webkit POC ready to hand, but I think I<br>
>>>> remember the approach. Basically, the WebKit based transformation was<br>
>>>> done via SWT BrowserFunction[1] and the performance was much worse<br>
>>>> in comparison with the DOM API. If you want to figure out how the<br>
>>>> current Xulrunner based implementation work, you should probably start<br>
>>>> with tests[2] that cover things like mapping between source jsf / jsp<br>
>>>> tags and visual part via DOM API. However, I still want to put my 2<br>
>>>> cents in this discussion.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Let's face the bullet - JSF is dying technology, and spending any time<br>
>>>> on new development is simply nonsensical IMO. Even if eventually a<br>
>>>> better WebKit based VPE will be created (which is doubtful because it<br>
>>>> was developed by big team ~ 10 developers for a couple of years) it<br>
>>>> will have very little value for both community and business. For now<br>
>>>> the only request from the community was - "please, leave it as is".<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> If SWT will drop GTK 2 support than we will have to deprecate it on<br>
>>>> this Linux. But it worth mentioning that all Linux distros are just a<br>
>>>> couple of percents of the tools user base and our target audience ~ 85<br>
>>>> - 90 % is Windows developers. For me it is also not clear why it is<br>
>>>> important to deprecate it right now ? We already had this discussion<br>
>>>> and decided not to do it in 2015, so I can not come up with a reason<br>
>>>> why should it be done in 2016. Just to be clear, I am not against<br>
>>>> deprecation, I am just saying that we should think twice before doing<br>
>>>> it and get some agreement about Xulrunner future, so that we will not<br>
>>>> be returning to this discussion again and again.<br>
>>>> [1]<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href="http://help.eclipse.org/kepler/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.eclipse.platform.doc.isv%2Freference%2Fapi%2Forg%2Feclipse%2Fswt%2Fbrowser%2FBrowserFunction.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://help.eclipse.org/<wbr>kepler/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.<wbr>eclipse.platform.doc.isv%<wbr>2Freference%2Fapi%2Forg%<wbr>2Feclipse%2Fswt%2Fbrowser%<wbr>2FBrowserFunction.html</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <<a href="http://help.eclipse.org/kepler/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.eclipse.platform.doc.isv%2Freference%2Fapi%2Forg%2Feclipse%2Fswt%2Fbrowser%2FBrowserFunction.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://help.eclipse.org/<wbr>kepler/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.<wbr>eclipse.platform.doc.isv%<wbr>2Freference%2Fapi%2Forg%<wbr>2Feclipse%2Fswt%2Fbrowser%<wbr>2FBrowserFunction.html</a>><br>
>>>> [2]<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a href="https://github.com/jbosstools/jbosstools-vpe/blob/master/tests/org.jboss.tools.vpe.base.test/src/org/jboss/tools/vpe/base/test/VpeTest.java#L340" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/jbosstools/<wbr>jbosstools-vpe/blob/master/<wbr>tests/org.jboss.tools.vpe.<wbr>base.test/src/org/jboss/tools/<wbr>vpe/base/test/VpeTest.java#<wbr>L340</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 8:07 AM, Aleksandar Kurtakov<br>
>>>> <<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Adding Max and Alexey (maybe we should move to the mailing list?)<br>
>>>> and dropping Jeff to not spam him.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
>>>> > From: "Aleksandar Kurtakov" <<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > To: "Ilya Buziuk" <<a href="mailto:ibuziuk@redhat.com">ibuziuk@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ibuziuk@redhat.com">ibuziuk@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > Cc: "Nick Boldt" <<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com">nboldt@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com">nboldt@redhat.com</a>>>,<br>
>>>> "Leo Ufimtsev" <<a href="mailto:lufimtse@redhat.com">lufimtse@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lufimtse@redhat.com">lufimtse@redhat.com</a>>>,<br>
>>>> "Jeff Johnston" <<a href="mailto:jjohnstn@redhat.com">jjohnstn@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jjohnstn@redhat.com">jjohnstn@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, 29 September, 2016 9:04:42 AM<br>
>>>> > Subject: Re: Do we still need Xulrunner in Devstudio?<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----<br>
>>>> > > From: "Ilya Buziuk" <<a href="mailto:ibuziuk@redhat.com">ibuziuk@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ibuziuk@redhat.com">ibuziuk@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > > To: "Aleksandar Kurtakov" <<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > > Cc: "Nick Boldt" <<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com">nboldt@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com">nboldt@redhat.com</a>>>, "Leo Ufimtsev" <<a href="mailto:lufimtse@redhat.com">lufimtse@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lufimtse@redhat.com">lufimtse@redhat.com</a>>>,<br>
>>>> > > "Jeff Johnston" <<a href="mailto:jjohnstn@redhat.com">jjohnstn@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jjohnstn@redhat.com">jjohnstn@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > > Sent: Wednesday, 28 September, 2016 8:23:47 PM<br>
>>>> > > Subject: Re: Do we still need Xulrunner in Devstudio?<br>
>>>> > ><br>
>>>> > > Basically, jsf tags can not be displayed as-is and be parsed<br>
>>>> correctly in<br>
>>>> > > browser like html, due to the fact that it is server side<br>
>>>> technology. So,<br>
>>>> > > the algorithm for VPE is the following: the content is<br>
>>>> rendered and all<br>
>>>> > > jsf tags are parsed through a set of templates via the native<br>
>>>> DOM API which<br>
>>>> > > is available only in particular older versions of XULRunner.<br>
>>>> So, in order<br>
>>>> > > to use Webkit or other engine and migrate all VPE features,<br>
>>>> reimplementing<br>
>>>> > > all of those temlpate transformations is required. Plus not to<br>
>>>> forget the<br>
>>>> > > performance thing - processing might take a long time (I think<br>
>>>> we had some<br>
>>>> > > WebKit POC but performance was just unacceptable). This is not<br>
>>>> a trivial<br>
>>>> > > task at all and I do believe that we have no resources for<br>
>>>> doing it - VPE<br>
>>>> > > component's code base is one of the biggest (if not the<br>
>>>> biggest) across<br>
>>>> > > tools.<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Can you point<br>
>>>> me to the<br>
>>>> > transformations used for the xulrunner? Sorry for being lazy but<br>
>>>> it's<br>
>>>> > foreing land for me so I would rather not lose time lurking<br>
>>>> around.<br>
>>>> > Do you have a pointer to the WebKit POC? It might be interested<br>
>>>> to reach out<br>
>>>> > to the desktop team (there is webkit developer there) with all<br>
>>>> the info so<br>
>>>> > maybe they can hint us how to achieve what's needed if latest<br>
>>>> webkit doesn't<br>
>>>> > fullfill the needs.<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > > In a nutshell - after reimplementing there will be the same,<br>
>>>> or less<br>
>>>> > > powerful, VPE with more bugs and poor performance.<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > That might be true now but you should think a bit further in<br>
>>>> time. In the not<br>
>>>> > so distant future (2018 release most probably, if not 2019 for<br>
>>>> sure) SWT<br>
>>>> > itself will drop support for running on GTK 2.x and that would be<br>
>>>> > effectively the end of this plugin if no action taken.<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > ><br>
>>>> > > On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Aleksandar Kurtakov<br>
>>>> <<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > > wrote:<br>
>>>> > ><br>
>>>> > > ><br>
>>>> > > ><br>
>>>> > > > ----- Original Message -----<br>
>>>> > > > > From: "Ilya Buziuk" <<a href="mailto:ibuziuk@redhat.com">ibuziuk@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ibuziuk@redhat.com">ibuziuk@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > > > > To: "Nick Boldt" <<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com">nboldt@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com">nboldt@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > > > > Cc: "Aleksandar Kurtakov" <<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a><br>
>>>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:akurtako@redhat.com">akurtako@redhat.com</a>>>, "Leo Ufimtsev" <<br>
>>>> > > > <a href="mailto:lufimtse@redhat.com">lufimtse@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lufimtse@redhat.com">lufimtse@redhat.com</a>>>, "Jeff<br>
>>>> Johnston"<br>
>>>> > > > > <<a href="mailto:jjohnstn@redhat.com">jjohnstn@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jjohnstn@redhat.com">jjohnstn@redhat.com</a>>><br>
>>>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 28 September, 2016 7:19:24 PM<br>
>>>> > > > > Subject: Re: Do we still need Xulrunner in Devstudio?<br>
>>>> > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > Actually, we planned to remove xulrunner and deprecate VPE<br>
>>>> some time<br>
>>>> > > > > ago<br>
>>>> > > > > and leave only VPV as a WYSIWYG html editor.<br>
>>>> > > > As someone not familiar with the topic I don't see xulrunner<br>
>>>> and VPE<br>
>>>> > > > deprecation that closely coupled. What is the reason for<br>
>>>> that? What's<br>
>>>> > > > preventing to achieve it with webkit? Do you extend SWT<br>
>>>> Browser API<br>
>>>> > > > somehow?<br>
>>>> > > > Please give all the details you can think of so I can get<br>
>>>> better<br>
>>>> > > > understanding of the issue/reasons.<br>
>>>> > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > However, as soon as we gave a<br>
>>>> > > > > shout out about this on <a href="http://tools.jboss.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">tools.jboss.org</a><br>
>>>> <<a href="http://tools.jboss.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://tools.jboss.org</a>> the first comment was:<br>
>>>> > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > Nice. The reason I used JBoss Tools was the Visual Editor<br>
>>>> for JSF,<br>
>>>> > > > > > especially for the Visual parts, which was not perfect<br>
>>>> but was good<br>
>>>> > > > enough<br>
>>>> > > > > > to have it. Will you have alternatives for that ? [1]<br>
>>>> > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > It was decided that we need to slow down with this<br>
>>>> process. I can not<br>
>>>> > > > > say<br>
>>>> > > > > if it is a high time for doing this assuming that some<br>
>>>> people actually<br>
>>>> > > > use<br>
>>>> > > > > it. Furthermore, some people treat it as a killer feature<br>
>>>> for JSF that<br>
>>>> > > > only<br>
>>>> > > > > one IDE is providing. So, we need to think twice before<br>
>>>> doing it.<br>
>>>> > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > [1]<br>
>>>> <a href="http://tools.jboss.org/blog/2015-04-02-devstudio-8.1.0.GA-" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://tools.jboss.org/blog/<wbr>2015-04-02-devstudio-8.1.0.GA-</a><br>
>>>> <<a href="http://tools.jboss.org/blog/2015-04-02-devstudio-8.1.0.GA-" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://tools.jboss.org/blog/<wbr>2015-04-02-devstudio-8.1.0.GA-</a><wbr>><br>
>>>> > > > for-luna.html<br>
>>>> > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 5:40 PM, Nick Boldt<br>
>>>> <<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com">nboldt@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:nboldt@redhat.com">nboldt@redhat.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
>>>> > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > > On the Eclipse team call today, the question of why we<br>
>>>> need Xulrunner<br>
>>>> > > > > > was brought up again.<br>
>>>> > > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > > As I understand it, the only reason we still include<br>
>>>> Xulrunner is for<br>
>>>> > > > > > the Visual Page Editor. But Alex pointed out today that<br>
>>>> Xulrunner<br>
>>>> > > > > > only<br>
>>>> > > > > > works on GTK2, which means a user has to explicity<br>
>>>> disable GTK3 in<br>
>>>> > > > > > order for Xulrunner to be used, as these days GTK3 is<br>
>>>> the default<br>
>>>> > > > > > OOTB<br>
>>>> > > > > > implementation on the platforms we support (Fedora<br>
>>>> 24/25, RHEL7,<br>
>>>> > > > > > etc.).<br>
>>>> > > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > > So... is it time to remove Xulrunner from the Devstudio<br>
>>>> dependencies,<br>
>>>> > > > > > if most people are not even seeing it used?<br>
>>>> > > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > > Alex suggested it might be useful to set up a call to<br>
>>>> discuss this in<br>
>>>> > > > > > more depth. Is there a good time tomorrow or Friday you<br>
>>>> guys would<br>
>>>> > > > > > like to meet to discuss this, if it can't be resolved<br>
>>>> asynchronously<br>
>>>> > > > > > via email?<br>
>>>> > > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > > Whatever we decide here, we should make sure we announce<br>
>>>> this on the<br>
>>>> > > > > > jbosstools-dev@ list.<br>
>>>> > > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > > > --<br>
>>>> > > > > > Nick Boldt :: JBoss by Red Hat<br>
>>>> > > > > > Productization Lead :: JBoss Tools & Dev Studio<br>
>>>> > > > > > <a href="http://nick.divbyzero.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://nick.divbyzero.com</a><br>
>>>> > > > > ><br>
>>>> > > > ><br>
>>>> > > ><br>
>>>> > > > --<br>
>>>> > > > Alexander Kurtakov<br>
>>>> > > > Red Hat Eclipse team<br>
>>>> > > ><br>
>>>> > ><br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>> > --<br>
>>>> > Alexander Kurtakov<br>
>>>> > Red Hat Eclipse team<br>
>>>> ><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> --<br>
>>>> Alexander Kurtakov<br>
>>>> Red Hat Eclipse team<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
><br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Nick Boldt :: JBoss by Red Hat<br>
Productization Lead :: JBoss Tools & Dev Studio<br>
<a href="http://nick.divbyzero.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://nick.divbyzero.com</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>