Max (and the JCP PMO),<br><br>Happy belated New Year! I'd like to pick up where we left of at the end of last year with the JSR-314 mailinglist issues. I'm hopeful that we can make swift progress now that we are well into 2010. I've retained our last communication at the bottom of this message for reference.<br>
<br>The most pressing concern of the JSR-314 EG is that we get the archives for the JSR-314-OPEN mailinglist restored. The archives stopped working in June 2009 and we have no archived messages since then:<br><br><a href="http://archives.java.sun.com/cgi-bin/wa?A0=JSR-314-OPEN">http://archives.java.sun.com/cgi-bin/wa?A0=JSR-314-OPEN</a><br>
<br>This is <u>hindering</u> progress on the JSR because we cannot find or link to unresolved discussions.<br><br>While on the one hand we have expressed an interest in migrating our mailinglist over the the <a href="http://jcp.org">jcp.org</a> software, we are in <i>desperate</i> need of a short term fix that allows the EG and the community to have access to the existing archives online. There is growing frustration amongst the EG over the missing archives. It's also putting me in a bad position since I am not upholding my promise to the group to find a solution. Even more troubling, we are also breaking our promise of openness to the community.<br>
<br>Before anything else happens, we absolutely must find a way to get that problem solved.<br><br>Looking ahead, here are the other points that we agreed on:<br><br>1. Import all JSR-314-OPEN messages into jsr-314-observers<br>
2. Give the EG an opportunity to review the results of the import to ensure that the results are acceptable<br>3. Make the jsr-314-observers archives (stored in the online board) open to the public for read access<br>4. Clarify that the jsr-314-observers will function as a mailinglist<br>
5. ...prepare for official migration<br><br>I'll also restate some lower-priority changes that I would like to see to the <a href="http://jcp.org">jcp.org</a> site:<br><br>1. Cut down (or otherwise document) the delay between the time a message is sent to <a href="mailto:jsr-314-public@jcp.org">jsr-314-public@jcp.org</a> to the time it appears in the board<br>
2. Make the full list of public-facing boards available when the user first visits <a href="http://wiki.jcp.org/boards/">http://wiki.jcp.org/boards/</a><br>3. Get rid of the wiki syntax in the boards as it will result in archives messages being displayed improperly<br>
4. Dark the text on <a href="http://jcp.org">jcp.org</a> to at least #333333 (about 80% black). Most news
sites adhere to this convention for the vision impaired.<br><br>Please provide an update as soon as you can.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Dan, on behalf of the JSR-314 EG<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Dan Allen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dan.j.allen@gmail.com">dan.j.allen@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="im">Max (and the JCP PMO),<br><br>I want to start by saying that we appreciate your thorough response and your willingness to address our requests. I'm confident that our work together with have a positive and lasting influence on the JCP community.<br>
<br>I've provided feedback and clarification inline.<br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="im">On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:07 PM, Max Lanfranconi <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Max.Lanfranconi@sun.com" target="_blank">Max.Lanfranconi@sun.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Please be aware that making the jsr-314-observers board visible to the public<br>
is a customization of the code that needs to be implemented.<br></blockquote></div><div><br><div class="im">It would help us if we understood why it is necessary to customize the off-the-shelf software to make the observers boards public. I'm not questioning the need, but rather trying to understand why the observers boards are different than the public boards, which are public facing already. If we understood better what the problem is, I think we would have an easier time remaining patient.<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><div class="im">
Also, as discussed with Roger, we are waiting on a couple of really critical<br>
fixes to the code that we are using for the boards that prevent us to release the<br>
features you are looking forward to.<br>
Such fixes are being implemented outside Sun, and, as much as we would like<br>
to have them now, they are going to take some time to be developed,<br>
tested and implemented.<br></div></blockquote><div><br>Understood.<br> <br></div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
So, here is a summary of what we will do:<br>
<br>
We will import the current subscribers from jsr-314-open into<br>
jsr-314-observers.<br></blockquote></div><div><br>Great!<br> </div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
The mailing list jsr-314-open will go away. <br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
Subscribers to jsr-314-observers will be able to both read and write<br>
to the board/alias.<br></blockquote></div><div><br><div class="im">This doesn't add any restrictions to what we currently have with jsr-314-open, so we are willing to migrate immediately based on the information you have provided. (Note that we are still seeking public read access, but that was never possible with jsr-314-open, so by migrating we can pursue this need)<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Other users who are NOT subscribed will be able to read the<div class="im"><br>
jsr-314-observers archives in the discussion board<br></div></blockquote><div><br><div class="im">I'm assuming you mean "not subscribed, but signed in <a href="http://jcp.org" target="_blank">jcp.org</a> members". I just want to clarify the current state.<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><div class="im">
Users may request to become subscribers by filling out the existing<br>
form to join the jsr-314-observers board; Ed and/or Roger would then be<br>
able to review the nomination and approve/decline the request using the<br>
existing form.<br></div></blockquote><div><br><div class="im">That's fine in the short term. In the long run, I don't see why we need a human task in the subscription process. That will burden Ed and Roger and slow down the subscription. I'd like to request that the process be completely automated.<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><div class="im">
Note: the list of boards on <a href="http://jcp.org" target="_blank">jcp.org</a> is browsable by logged-in users, but<br>
there are publicly-readable boards that anyone can read, though they<br>
can't see the navigation if they don't log in. So, a question about read<br>
permissions: do you want the list readable by registered users of<br>
<a href="http://jcp.org" target="_blank">jcp.org</a>, who will have handy navigation to find the jsr-314-observers<br>
board, or do you want anyone with an internet connection to be able to<br>
read it, with the idea that you would send out a direct link to the world?<br></div></blockquote><div><br><div class="im">First of all, one of my major complaints with <a href="http://jcp.org" target="_blank">jcp.org</a> right now is that the list of boards is not visible at first view. I don't understand why the complete list can't be displayed (obviously, the jsr-xxx-eg boards can be hidden). When I first arrived at the boards page, I thought that there were only a handful of boards. Later I realized there are a lot more, just hidden.<br>
<br>So yes, we want the complete board list to be visible. There is no reason to hide the names of any of the boards (with the exception of the jsr-xxx-eg boards).<br><br>We also want a search engine, such as Google, to be able to navigate to the threads in the jsr-314-observers forum so that they can be indexed. That means they should be visible by an anonymous visitor.<br>
<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><div class="im">
Once again, just so that there will be no misunderstanding, I am restating<br>
the current status next to each of your requests marking it with ****: </div></blockquote><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
1) Make jsr-xxx-observers readable by the world and writable by anyone<br>
w/ post access to jsr-314-open<br>
****Waiting of third party developers****<br></blockquote></div><div><br><div class="im">Your saying we can't even migrate without critical fixes? We really want to migrate as soon as possible, so anything that can be done to speed this up would be great.<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
2) Import the archives of jsr-314-open into jsr-314-observers<div class="im"><br>
****Waiting on third party developers****<br></div></blockquote><div><br><div>Again, I'm wondering which fixes we need to at least do the migration.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>Just to clarify this point, we also need to jsr-314-open archives (the messages dating back to March 09) imported into jsr-314-observers. The EG would like to review the result of the import (i.e., how the messages appear in the board) before we commit to switching over to the new mailinglist.<br>
</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="im"> </div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
3) Messages sent to <a href="mailto:jsr-314-public@jcp.org" target="_blank">jsr-314-public@jcp.org</a><div class="im"><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:jsr-314-public@jcp.org" target="_blank">jsr-314-public@jcp.org</a>> are still not ending up on the forum<br>
unless the sender is on the JSR-314 EG; anyone should be allowed to post<br>
through that email address<br>
****The problem is somewhat different of what it seems:<br>
registered users ARE able to use the jsr-314-public board, but that it takes a<br>
while after registration for those permission to propogate to all systems (similar<br>
to what happens about making Expert Group edits). This will be fixed in the<br>
future but it is basically a "feature, not a bug"TM for now ****<br></div></blockquote><div><br><div class="im">Okay, as long as we can document how long it will take as an upper bound, at least the community will know that they have to be patient. Is it 1 hour? 12 hours? 24 hours? 48 hours? You should strongly consider documenting this on <a href="http://jcporg" target="_blank">jcp.org</a> in a prominent place, because otherwise the community is going to assume the software is broken. I can live with a propagation delay, as long as we can set the expectation.<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><div class="im">
Also, while you are reading this, is there anyway to reverse the order<br>
that posts appear on the forum? Currently, the new posts in a thread<br>
show up first and the oldest last. That is totally upside down from how<br>
95% of the forums on the web work.<br>
****We are discussing this with the forum's developers.<br>
It should be doable but has much lower priority compared with everything<br>
else they are working on right now so it might take quite some time before this<br>
will be addressed. ****<br></div></blockquote><div><br><div class="im">Understood.<br><br>One other thing I noticed recently (sorry to keep adding things, but this is really important to get this right). I'm strongly against the wiki syntax in the boards. When we import our messages, it is going to produce all kinds of strange links and other markup that we don't want. When people post to a mailinglist, they expect it to be interpreted as plain text. We absolutely need to get rid of the wiki syntax in the boards.<br>
<br><br> </div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><div class="im">
Rest assured that your needs are very high on our priority list. As soon as we<br>
receive the fixes from the third party developers we will test them, deploy them<br>
and let you know.<br></div></blockquote><div><br>A sincere thanks.<br> </div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
Unfortunately we are not able to provide a firm date yet, but we will let you<br>
know as soon as possible.<br></blockquote></div><div><br><div class="im">Please don't hesitate to send an update, even if it is brief.<br> </div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><div class="im">
Please let me know if there is any further concern that I did not cover.<br></div></blockquote><div><br><div class="im">Another very quick, yet important change request. The text on <a href="http://jcp.org" target="_blank">jcp.org</a> is very, very
difficult to read, especially for people that don't have strong
eyesight (I am lucky in that regard, but I must keep the general
population in mind). The problem is that the text is too light! It
needs to be darked to at least #333333 (about 80% black). Most news
sites adhere to this convention for the vision impaired.<br><br></div></div></div><div class="im">Thanks again. I'm very glad to have established a good working relationship with your team. Our streamlined collaboration is what's best for the JCP community!<br>
<br></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">-Dan<br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Dan Allen<br>Senior Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action<br>Registered Linux User #231597<br><br><a href="http://mojavelinux.com" target="_blank">http://mojavelinux.com</a><br>
<a href="http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction" target="_blank">http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction</a><br>
<a href="http://www.google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Dan Allen<br>Senior Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action<br>Registered Linux User #231597<br><br><a href="http://mojavelinux.com">http://mojavelinux.com</a><br>
<a href="http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction">http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction</a><br><a href="http://www.google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen">http://www.google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen</a><br>