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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Michael,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Yes, our biggest challenge is the design
of our BRMS (rules, packages, categories etc.). I don’t think compilation
times of several minutes is a problem since we will probably compile new or
modified rules/packages/categories in a verification/staging environment for
testing before moving them to production. Maybe we can queue builds/tests for
resource management (since it is already running in a verification environment)
so the BRMS doesn’t run out of resources. So far, I think the performance
evaluation looks pretty good with no areas needing particular attention. We will
probably know more once we have some real use cases.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Len<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org [mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Michael Neale<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 26, 2007
8:24 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Rules
Users List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [rules-users] Re:
Drools and BRMS (60,000+ rules)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hi Len. <br>
<br>
Yes the main challenges I see are to do with the sheer numbers of rules you see
yourself happening, and how to manage that in any sort of BRMS. ie are there
100's of packages, or a few uber packages etc. How do you break it up so its
manageable? etc... even simple things, like if there is a drop down with rule
names - that doesnt' scale to well to that number of rules (in a single
package). We have categories which allow you to break down views into rules
etc. <br>
<br>
The other side of the coin is compile time taken and memory used. Good to see
you have done some profiling of it (I saw you PDF) - I haven't had a chance to
load up your project yet but I did do some of my own profiling. Since 4.0.3 the
impact of deserialization and rule packages has been partly addressed. <br>
<br>
I am worried that one rule change would require a 5 minute rebuild of an entire
package (is 5 minutes too long? I really don't know how much your rules will
change etc). On the BRMS server, we need to have some background resource
management where we control how many builds/tests are going on so that we dont'
starve the BRMS as resources (so in that sense it becomes a bit like a CI
server, where it detects changes and then builds int he background). <br>
<br>
Regarding your profiling so far - nothing seems that surprising - were there
any areas that you think needed particular attention? <br>
<br>
Michael.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Nov 25, 2007 6:43 AM, Carlsen, Len < <a
href="mailto:len.carlsen@ubc.ca">len.carlsen@ubc.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>We would probably use the existing
server side code and extent the current BRMS client UI, to satisfy our
needs. By designing our BRMS I mostly meant designing the structure of
all our rule domains, rules/packages and facts (courses/learning units).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Len</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a
href="mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank">rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank">rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Proctor<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Saturday,
November 24, 2007 1:02 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Rules
Users List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [rules-users] Re:
Drools and BRMS (60,000+ rules)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Carlsen, Len wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This is very cool and is exactly what we will need for our new open<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>source SIS. Once we have designed our BRMS then we will look more<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>closely at Drools Solver (especially after the ITC competition). <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Are you writting your own BRMS from scratch? Are there any particular
issues with the BRMS at the moment that would warrant this? Maybe you could
work on the BRMS we have now to extend it to satisfy your needs.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Currently, we are using Ad Astra for our course timetabling and exam<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>scheduling and it would be good if we could replace that with Solver.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Thanks for your interest,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Len<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: <a
href="mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank">rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>[<a
href="mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank">mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a>] On Behalf Of Geoffrey De<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Smet<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 5:09 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To: <a
href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank">rules-users@lists.jboss.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Subject: [rules-users] Re: Drools and BRMS (60,000+ rules)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mark Proctor wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Carlsen, Len wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Other issues are the performance of the Drools Solver and having <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>thousands of rules compiled, loaded and running. During registration <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>we could have thousands of rules executing concurrently. The rules <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>engine and the BRMS would be services as part of an SOA<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>infrastructure <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>(and an OSGi service environment). Anyone got any experience with <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Drools in an OSGi environment with respect to class loading issues <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>when compiling rules and facts from other bundles since rules and <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>facts may be in different bundles? Bundle buddy class loading?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>No but it is something that interests us, please give us your OSGi <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>feedback. Solver is not currently a supported product, its very much<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>R&D <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>alphaware, but I'm sure geoffrey would love your feedback, good to see<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>people are evaluating it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>yes, feedback on solver is very welcome :)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>The good news is, I am now working on an example called Examination,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>which is an implementation for the itc2007 examination competition:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.cs.qub.ac.uk/itc2007/examtrack/exam_track_index_files/exameva"
target="_blank">http://www.cs.qub.ac.uk/itc2007/examtrack/exam_track_index_files/exameva</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>luation.htm<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It's based on real-world data. The "starter" dataset contains 7883 <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>students, 607 exams, 54 periods and 7 rooms. There are 5 hard <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>constraints and 7 soft constraints:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.cs.qub.ac.uk/itc2007/examtrack/exam_track_index_files/exameva"
target="_blank">http://www.cs.qub.ac.uk/itc2007/examtrack/exam_track_index_files/exameva</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>luation.htm<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>The bad news is, it's not performing yet, because I need to make a <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>scalable selector implementation, which I am working on.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>There's an example called lesson schedule (which schedules courses), but<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that's just a toy example to learn drools-solver, at it just has 2 hard <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>constraints.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>One piece of advice though: separate the solver part from the rest. Once<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> the solver starts calculating, you 'll only want to have score-related<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>rules in the rulebase. The solver can easily do a million fireAllRules <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>per minute, so every performance loss is blown up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>With kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Geoffrey De Smet<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>rules-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank">rules-users@lists.jboss.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users" target="_blank">https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>rules-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank">rules-users@lists.jboss.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users" target="_blank">https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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-- <br>
Michael D Neale<br>
home: <a href="http://www.michaelneale.net">www.michaelneale.net</a><br>
blog: <a href="http://michaelneale.blogspot.com">michaelneale.blogspot.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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