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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tom.E.Murphy@wellsfargo.com">Tom.E.Murphy@wellsfargo.com</a> wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:E36ED472A6209748A444C6376CB424D22315C54698@MSGCMSV21039.ent.wfb.bank.corp"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Paul -
Drools does not appear to have done well on those benchmarks, but the paper does not seem to mention which version of Drools was used. Did I miss that? Do you know which version it was?
</pre>
</blockquote>
I don't think it is related to the version of drools, but the type of
tests being done. The tests are general logic problems geared towards
backward chaining engines that they are "emulating" in drools, much
like the Qs that paul fodor is asking. Some things are done better and
faster n a prolog engine and some things are done better and faster in
a production rule engine.<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E36ED472A6209748A444C6376CB424D22315C54698@MSGCMSV21039.ent.wfb.bank.corp"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Tom Murphy
Business Process Consultant
Wells Fargo HCFG - CORE Deal Decisioning Platform
800 S. Jordan Creek Parkway | West Des Moines, IA 50266
MAC: X2301-01B
Office: 515 324 4853 | Mobile: 941 320 8014
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-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org">rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org">mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a>] On Behalf Of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rules-users-request@lists.jboss.org">rules-users-request@lists.jboss.org</a>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:14 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org">rules-users@lists.jboss.org</a>
Subject: rules-users Digest, Vol 29, Issue 45
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Comparison info with other engines (Paul Fodor)
2. RE: Comparison info with other engines (Ingold, Jonathan)
3. Re: Negation semantics in Drools (Paul Fodor)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:25:43 -0400
From: Paul Fodor <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.i.fodor@gmail.com"><paul.i.fodor@gmail.com></a>
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Comparison info with other engines
To: Rules Users List <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org"><rules-users@lists.jboss.org></a>
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:7641b8a40904171325u26d00b89h8ac857ee4d093416@mail.gmail.com"><7641b8a40904171325u26d00b89h8ac857ee4d093416@mail.gmail.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
2009/4/17 Lindy hagan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lindyhagan@gmail.com"><lindyhagan@gmail.com></a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm wondering if anybody has comparison info with other engines. I just
started to evaluate the products
not sure which factors to consider. But I have these requirements:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
It has to be a production rule system or any rule system (logic programming,
deductive databases, triples rule engines)? Check the benchmarks at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://rulebench.projects.semwebcentral.org">http://rulebench.projects.semwebcentral.org</a>
The benchmarks may have features which you might not need, and not all the
tested systems are free. Its main goal was to compare technologies, but it
might help you decide what system you want.
Regards,
Paul Fodor
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Must Be
1)Free or inexpensive product.
2)Rules change frequently, level of effort should be minimum.
3)Multiple join condition (A rule is determined ranging from 1 to 10 data
fields.)
4)Should support approximately 75 rules.
Better if we have.
1)Change Rules dynamically if possible.
2)Ease of use for Business users and developers.
3)Rule versioning.
Will be happy if any one can send me rule comparison document or suggest me
which tools can i use to evaluate.
Thanks,
Lindy
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</blockquote>
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:44:03 -0400
From: "Ingold, Jonathan" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jonathan.ingold@jackson.com"><jonathan.ingold@jackson.com></a>
Subject: RE: [rules-users] Comparison info with other engines
To: "Rules Users List" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org"><rules-users@lists.jboss.org></a>
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:CCA474835B7BF64BB1CCE365D614A614064F6C@MAILWP10A.jacksonnational.com"><CCA474835B7BF64BB1CCE365D614A614064F6C@MAILWP10A.jacksonnational.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Guvnor feature of Drools makes things easier for Business users and
is great for version control!
| Jonathan Ingold | <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jonathan.ingold@jackson.com">jonathan.ingold@jackson.com</a> | PH: & FAX:
517-367-3827 | Business Rules Developer | Jackson National Life
Insurance | <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.jackson.com">http://www.jackson.com</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.jackson.com/"><http://www.jackson.com/></a> | Please
note that all Jackson e-mail addresses have changed from @jnli.com to
@jackson.com.
________________________________
From: Lindy hagan [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lindyhagan@gmail.com">mailto:lindyhagan@gmail.com</a>]
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 2:28 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org">rules-users@lists.jboss.org</a>
Subject: [rules-users] Comparison info with other engines
I'm wondering if anybody has comparison info with other engines. I just
started to evaluate the products
not sure which factors to consider. But I have these requirements:
Must Be
1)Free or inexpensive product.
2)Rules change frequently, level of effort should be minimum.
3)Multiple join condition (A rule is determined ranging from 1 to 10
data fields.)
4)Should support approximately 75 rules.
Better if we have.
1)Change Rules dynamically if possible.
2)Ease of use for Business users and developers.
3)Rule versioning.
Will be happy if any one can send me rule comparison document or suggest
me which tools can i use to evaluate.
Thanks,
Lindy
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:13:43 -0400
From: Paul Fodor <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.i.fodor@gmail.com"><paul.i.fodor@gmail.com></a>
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Negation semantics in Drools
To: Rules Users List <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org"><rules-users@lists.jboss.org></a>
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:7641b8a40904171413t61221150qa067a1429576e321@mail.gmail.com"><7641b8a40904171413t61221150qa067a1429576e321@mail.gmail.com></a>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Edson,
The "insertLogical" doesn't work for non-stratified programs.
For instance, in the win-nowin example, if there is a move(1,2) and
a move(2,1), the order in which the two facts are inserted determines the
final model (please see hte tests below).
In logic programming, this example has two stable models: {win(1)} and
{win(2)}, or a well-founded model {} (win(1) and win(2) are both undefined).
Regards,
Paul.
*
package
* tests;
*
import
* tests.Test.Win;*
import
* tests.Test.Move;
*
rule
* "direct"
*when*
m : Move(x : first, y : second)
*not* Win(first == y)
*then*
*insertLogical*(*new* Win(m.getFirst()));*
end
*
move
1
2
move
2
1
Test:
reading rulefile: win.drl ...
reading datafile: win_upper3_drools.drools ...
loading cputime: 0.016
loading walltime: 0.016
calculating ...
computing cputime: 0.0
computing walltime: 0.0040
Derived facts in memory:move(1, 2).
win(2).
move(2, 1).
3
move
2
1
move
1
2
Test:
reading rulefile: win.drl ...
reading datafile: win_upper4_drools.drools ...
loading cputime: 0.016
loading walltime: 0.016
calculating ...
computing cputime: 0.0
computing walltime: 0.0040
Derived facts in memory:move(2, 1).
win(1).
move(1, 2).
3
2009/4/17 Edson Tirelli <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tirelli@post.com"><tirelli@post.com></a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
I did not had time to analyze what jess is doing, but note that what is
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->important is the final answer. In your example, with Move(1,2) and
Move(2,3), the final answer must be Win(2), right? And that is what Drools
will answer, does not matter the order in which the data is entered into the
engine.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> BUT, *very important*: the following construct in backward chaining:
win(X):- move(X,Y), not(win(Y)).
Is better represented in forward chaining using *logicalInsert*
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->instead of a regular *insert*:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">rule "direct" % Drools
when
m : Move(x : first, y : second)
not Win(first == y)
then
logicalInsert(new Win(m.getFirst()));
end
Since in your backward chaining rule, only one win() predicate
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->instantiation will remain true.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> So, even with differences in the reasoning algorithm, the answer is
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->correct.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> Please explain further if I am missing anything.
Edson
2009/4/17 Paul Fodor <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.i.fodor@gmail.com"><paul.i.fodor@gmail.com></a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Edson, Greg,
I don't think the rule is written wrong. This is how the win-nowin
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->program is written in logic programming: X wins if there is a move from X to
some Y and Y doesn't win:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">win(X):- move(X,Y), not(win(Y)).
rule "direct" % Drools
when
m : Move(x : first, y : second)
not Win(first == y)
then
insert(new Win(m.getFirst()));
end
I think that it's interesting that, in Jess (another production rule
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->system), the stratified model is always computed right, no matter what was
the order of the facts in the database. If you want to take a look, please
see the equivalent program in Jess for win-nowin that I attached. Just run
it with:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">jess test.clp
win_upper1_jess.jess
(move (cur 1) (next 2))
(move (cur 1) (next 3))
(move (cur 2) (next 4))
(move (cur 2) (next 5))
...
win_upper2_jess.jess
(move (cur 2) (next 4))
(move (cur 2) (next 5))
(move (cur 1) (next 2))
(move (cur 1) (next 3))
...
test.clp:
(deftemplate move (slot cur) (slot next))
(deftemplate win (slot val))
(defrule find_win
(move (cur ?cur) (next ?next))
(not (win (val ?next)))
=>
(assert (win (val ?cur)))
)
(defquery query-win
(win (val ?val))
)
(open "win_result.txt" output a)
(printout output ./win_upper1_jess.jess crlf)
(reset)
(load-facts "./win_upper1_jess.jess")
(bind ?tmx (call java.lang.management.ManagementFactory getThreadMXBean))
(deffunction cputime () (return (* (?tmx getCurrentThreadCpuTime) 1E-9)))
(bind ?starttime_wall (time))
(bind ?starttime_cpu (cputime))
(run)
(bind ?query_result (run-query* query-win))
(bind ?count 0)
(while (?query_result next)
(++ ?count)
)
(printout output "solutions: " ?count crlf)
(bind ?endtime_cpu (cputime))
(bind ?endtime_wall (time))
(bind ?walltime (- ?endtime_wall ?starttime_wall))
(bind ?cputime (- ?endtime_cpu ?starttime_cpu))
(printout output "computing cputime: " ?cputime crlf)
(printout output "computing walltime: " ?walltime crlf)
(close output)
Regards,
Paul Fodor.
2009/4/16 Edson Tirelli <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tirelli@post.com"><tirelli@post.com></a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> Ha, thanks a lot Greg. I need new glasses... he is actually comparing
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->with the parameter "second", but when creating the win fact, using the
parameter "first".
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">not Win(first == m.second)
insert(new Win(m.first));
Yes, in this case the engine is working exactly as it should.
Anyway, I added the (fixed) test case to the codebase, just in case.
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->:)
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> Thanks,
Edson
2009/4/16 Greg Barton <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:greg_barton@yahoo.com"><greg_barton@yahoo.com></a>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">You don't have to worry. The engine is acting as it should.
The rule Paul had was this, a bit simplified for clarity:
rule "direct"
when
m : Move()
not Win(first == m.second)
then
insert(new Win(m.first));
end
If the insertion order is [Move(1,2), Move(2,3)] then the rule matches
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->first on Move(2,3) and Win(2) is inserted. No other rule fires because now
Move(1,2) and Win(2) match up, removing the instantiation with Move(1,2)
from the agenda.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If the insertion order is [Move(2,3), Move(1,2)] then the order is
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->this:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">matched Move(1,2) insert Win(1)
matched Move(2,3) insert Win(2)
The insertion of Win(1) in the first firing does NOT prevent the
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->instantiation with Move(2,3) from then firing.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">So it's all good. :) Sample code and output attached.
--- On Thu, 4/16/09, Greg Barton <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:greg_barton@yahoo.com"><greg_barton@yahoo.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">From: Greg Barton <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:greg_barton@yahoo.com"><greg_barton@yahoo.com></a>
Subject: Re: [rules-users] Negation semantics in Drools
To: "Rules Users List" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org"><rules-users@lists.jboss.org></a>
Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 8:50 PM
It is on the latest snapshot release,
5.0.0.20090417.005612-483
--- On Thu, 4/16/09, Edson Tirelli <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tirelli@post.com"><tirelli@post.com></a>
wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> We need to investigate if that is still happening
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">in
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">latest trunk.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
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</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
--
Edson Tirelli
JBoss Drools Core Development
JBoss, a division of Red Hat @ <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.jboss.com">www.jboss.com</a>
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<pre wrap="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
--
Edson Tirelli
JBoss Drools Core Development
JBoss, a division of Red Hat @ <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.jboss.com">www.jboss.com</a>
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