You have some valid points. Here's some clarification and further data/observations:<br><br>1) The search function here: <a href="http://community.jboss.org/">http://community.jboss.org/</a> *does not* go to <a href="http://google.com">google.com</a>. It *does* for <a href="http://hibernate.org">hibernate.org</a>. That's pretty lame and double lame that it's inconsistent, yes.<br>
<br>2) From the <a href="http://hibernate.org">hibernate.org</a> home page, I click Tools link, navigate to this page: <a href="http://hibernate.org/subprojects/tools.html">http://hibernate.org/subprojects/tools.html</a>. Now the Downloads, Community, Documentation menus/links don't work (perhaps works as designed for Tools as there is no add'l info/links or not done/bug??).<br>
<br>3) And yes, how do I navigate back to the home page from the tools page??<br><br>4) Isn't it atypical to have the navigation panel on the right side in terms of templating/UI design?<br><br>5) what about <a href="https://forum.hibernate.org/">https://forum.hibernate.org/</a>? Will that migrate as well?<br>
<br>To be honest, <a href="http://community.jboss.org">community.jboss.org</a> (or more specifically <a href="http://hibernate.org">hibernate.org</a>) has issues as does sfwk.org...<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Gavin King <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com">gavin.king@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Look, it's clear that we needed to migrate away from the old<br>
<a href="http://hibernate.org" target="_blank">hibernate.org</a> infrastructure, which was on old PHP codebase abandoned<br>
several years ago, and featured a lot of the same problems which annoy<br>
me about the new site.<br>
<br>
But I think that it was a mistake to use the <a href="http://jboss.org" target="_blank">jboss.org</a> infrastructure<br>
instead of Seam Wiki, and I think that at the very least the switch<br>
was flipped on the new site well before it was ready and had been<br>
through a proper quality review. Here's a list of issues with the new<br>
site:<br>
<br>
==<br>
<br>
* Navigation is much more complex.<br>
<br>
I count five, even six different menus on each page, two of which<br>
contain pulldowns on some (but not all) menu items. These menus<br>
interact in strange and unintuitive ways. For example, it's totally<br>
non-obvious that the "Documentation" link takes you somewhere<br>
different, depending upon which subproject you happen to have<br>
selected. It's incredibly non-obvious how you get back to the main<br>
"Hibernate" frontpage once you have clicked on a subproject.<br>
<br>
At various places in the site, for example, as soon as you navigate to<br>
the wiki, you simply get lost in <a href="http://jboss.org" target="_blank">jboss.org</a>, and the menu bar no longer<br>
takes you back to <a href="http://hibernate.org" target="_blank">hibernate.org</a>! This is unprofessional, and I'm<br>
amazed, after all the assurances that porting to the <a href="http://jboss.org" target="_blank">jboss.org</a><br>
infrastructure would not affect the ability for the site to maintain<br>
its own identity, that we have these kinds of basic problems.<br>
<br>
These problems seem to be the direct result of re-using what already<br>
existed in <a href="http://jboss.org" target="_blank">jboss.org</a>.<br>
<br>
At the time the site went live, there were a bunch of broken links,<br>
though these now seem to be fixed. Also, users are complaining that<br>
bookmarked links to content on the old site are now broken. These may<br>
be just teething problems.<br>
<br>
* The site is uglier than the old site, and has lost its identity.<br>
<br>
This is an aesthetic judgement, obviously, and perhaps not everyone<br>
will agree. But after everyone has been assuring me for ages that *of<br>
course* migrating to the <a href="http://jboss.org" target="_blank">jboss.org</a> infrastructure would not affect our<br>
ability to maintain our existing look/feel and identity, I'm extremely<br>
surprised to find that the look and feel of the old hibernate page has<br>
been borgified and now has a much blander and less distinctive<br>
jboss.org-ified look.<br>
<br>
In particular, the wiki pages are just plain ugly, and don't look like<br>
plain web pages. Just try compare a page from <a href="http://seamframework.org" target="_blank">seamframework.org</a> to a<br>
page from the <a href="http://hibernate.org" target="_blank">hibernate.org</a> wiki side by side. One is beautiful, the<br>
other is vomit.<br>
<br>
* Login is screwed up.<br>
<br>
I'm annoyed that my old <a href="http://hibernate.org" target="_blank">hibernate.org</a> credentials don't work. I'm even<br>
more annoyed that logging in takes two clicks, and sends me to some<br>
<a href="http://jboss.org" target="_blank">jboss.org</a> page from which I have no chance to navigate back to the<br>
<a href="http://hibernate.org" target="_blank">hibernate.org</a> page I was looking at (without using the back button).<br>
This is just unprofessional.<br>
<br>
Again, this seems to be the result of using the <a href="http://jboss.org" target="_blank">jboss.org</a> infrastructure.<br>
<br>
* Inconsistent look and feel across the website, wiki and forums.<br>
<br>
Unlike in Seam Wiki, the wiki and forum each have their own special<br>
look and feel. The main pages of the site don't appear to be wiki<br>
pages at all, which means that I have 3 different ways of authoring<br>
and managing content depending upon where I am in the site. This is<br>
just crappy, folks! I did not even find *any* way to edit the main<br>
website pages via my web browser.<br>
<br>
* The search box takes me to Google.<br>
<br>
Perhaps I'm missing some "trick", but the search box does not seem to<br>
search the site at all. It seems to just take me straight to Google,<br>
and return me results from the whole internet.<br>
<br>
==<br>
<br>
These are just the things I noticed in a cursory inspection of the site.<br>
<br>
Now, perhaps some of these problems are fixable while remaining on the<br>
<a href="http://jboss.org" target="_blank">jboss.org</a> infrastructure. But <a href="http://seamframework.org" target="_blank">seamframework.org</a> does not have ANY of<br>
these problems. And <a href="http://hibernate.org" target="_blank">hibernate.org</a> would not have these problems if we<br>
would have used Seam Wiki, which was my recommendation at the time.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Steve Ebersole <<a href="mailto:steve@hibernate.org">steve@hibernate.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I just want to point out that I am not happy with Hibernate.org. However I<br>
> am not sure yet whether I am less happy with it now than I was with the old<br>
> site. Gavin you are seriously the only person I have come across that<br>
> actually liked that old site. The search sucked. Admin sucked. It was a<br>
> total pain to author content. The security "model" was atrocious. Contact<br>
> me off list if you need the rest of this list.<br>
><br>
> Was it great that we controlled it? Well that's a two-sided question. Of<br>
> course it was awesome that we got free reign over developing and designing<br>
> it. But the downside is/was maintaining it both in terms of administering<br>
> the machine and keeping the site software patched etc. Its this second<br>
> aspect where the old site was largely an epic fail. Its the single reason<br>
> we continued to use completely outdated software that eventually led to the<br>
> security incidents that started all the outages with <a href="http://hibernate.org" target="_blank">hibernate.org</a>. The php<br>
> wiki was absolute poopoo no matter what your rose-colored glasses want to<br>
> have you remember.<br>
><br>
> I am not going to speak about y'alls current site. I was not involved in<br>
> it, nor do I ever go there. So its not appropriate for me to speak about<br>
> it.<br>
><br>
> Someone pointed out some supposed issues with the new hibernate site. Well<br>
> the quick links are working and have always been working afaik. The tools<br>
> page is how max wanted it; all the "missing nav links" are actually part of<br>
> the page itself. Yes there is not a good way to link back to the magnolia<br>
> pages from the sbs pages, because the <a href="http://jboss.org" target="_blank">jboss.org</a> infrastructure does not<br>
> recgnize an association between the 2.<br>
><br>
> I personally welcome any *constructive* criticism of the <a href="http://hibernate.org" target="_blank">hibernate.org</a><br>
> setup. In fact we are discussing changes as I write this.<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> View this message in context: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/Seam-3-space-on-JBoss-Community-tp27950629p27989245.html" target="_blank">http://old.nabble.com/Seam-3-space-on-JBoss-Community-tp27950629p27989245.html</a><br>
> Sent from the seam-dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.<br>
><br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div>--<br>
<div class="im">Gavin King<br>
<a href="mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com">gavin.king@gmail.com</a><br>
</div><div class="im"><a href="http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin" target="_blank">http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin</a><br>
<a href="http://hibernate.org" target="_blank">http://hibernate.org</a><br>
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