[weld-dev] My take on Spring3
Reza Rahman
reza_rahman at lycos.com
Fri Dec 18 00:35:03 EST 2009
Piotr,
Understood, no problem. As I see it, a little bit of both is needed. If
no one points out what really is wrong with Spring, no one seems to
realize it and is quite complacent with it's shortcomings. That being
said, I agree negative campaigning just for the sake of stirring trouble
is inane.
Cheers,
Reza
Piotr Steininger wrote:
> I am still a bit on the fence about campaigning against Spring. I
> think there is far more to be gained from promoting CDI, Weld
> Extension, Seam 3 and the EE 6 profile (with positive messages), than
> jumping into a debate with gung-ho Spring believers. From what I saw
> in my consulting engagements people who used Spring for a while are
> stuck in a specific mindset of application development. For them
> anything beyond singleton bean wiring on app startup does not exist or
> is too mysterious or scary. Yes, it does sound funny, but I once had
> the same mindset, but I saw the light ;). I converted to Seam thanks
> to so many examples and great books like Dan's Seam in Action.
>
> So if our goal is to entice the "not-yet-lost" souls, then we have to
> send more messages that are pro-Weld, and not necessarily against
> Spring. How to do it? In a few ways. First, excellent and exhaustive
> documentation. I think Gavin, Pete, Dan and the community has done an
> awesome job in that arena, and have set a golden standard. Second -
> example projects. I think nothing shows the prowess of a technology
> stack than a real proof that it works, works well, integrates with
> other key technologies (JSF2, JPA, BPM, etc), which are part of the
> Enterprise application ecosystem. These examples though need to go
> above and beyond the simple ones already out there (we need the simple
> ones too) - something along the lines of the Photo Album for
> RichFaces. Third, tutorials, articles and blog posts detailing the
> aforementioned examples - in another words - creating the hype and
> excitement about the CDI's programming model, and the ease of creating
> powerful apps in an elegant and concise way.
>
> But at this point, there are still a number of important pieces
> missing, like the Weld extensions and Seam 3 modules, which provide
> integration with key technologies for business apps (i.e. BPM or
> Security) or complement these technologies. These are needed to create
> the example projects, which are essential as the meat of the article
> to be written about Weld and Seam.
>
> My key goal is to build an enthusiastic community around CDI, rather
> than go after Spring. I think Gavin has a better handle on disproving
> any allegation against CDI or anything bogus about Spring. I simply
> don't have the technical know-how, just an implementer experience.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Reza Rahman <reza_rahman at lycos.com
> <mailto:reza_rahman at lycos.com>> wrote:
>
> Piotr,
>
> Please consider posting your comments on InfoQ...it would help a
> greater number of developers see past the Spring FUD...
>
> Cheers,
> Reza
>
>
> Piotr Steininger wrote:
>
> Gavin,
>
> One thing to add to your comment is that they have done
> nothing to Spring Webflow, which on the cover, promises the
> scopes/context that Seam 2 delivered (primarily the
> conversation scope). I had the misfortune of being forced to
> use the Spring stack on one of my engagements, after having
> great success with Seam on another project. I can't explain
> how harrowing of an effort it was to get Webflow working even
> remotely like Seam (in Webflow all conversation scoped beans
> had to be manually defined in the xml). And the docs - yes
> there are some, but extremely minuscule for JSF integration
> and absolutely NO mention of necessary JSF 1.2 configuration,
> which I had to figure out on my own.
>
> I also had to make it work with Spring Security - this one is
> clunky and difficult to set up, no to mention buggy. Yes, the
> security was bumped to 3.0.0 and aligned with JSR-250, but
> where in the world are the docs?! There ar en't any for 3.0,
> and the ones for 2.x aren't any better than the ones for Webflow.
>
> As a software architect who often gets to decide the
> technology stack (but sometimes gets overruled :( ), I look
> for a complete /ecosystem/ for the application I'm designing,
> not just individual pieces with big promises. I need stuff
> that works, works well, and works together. Not only that, I
> look for something simple, maintainable and maintained by a
> strong community. And my measure of strong community is the
> quality of documentation and ac cess to knowledgeable
> resources, without support contracts.
>
> This is where Spring falls entire short of its promises, yet
> again. So my time and money are with CDI and Seam.
>
> Thanks for your advocacy and hard work!
>
> Piotr
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Gavin King
> <gavin.king at gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king at gmail.com>
> <mailto:gavin.king at gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king at gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
>
> http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/12/spring30#view_51440
>
> --
> Gavin King
> gavin.king at gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king at gmail.com>
> <mailto:gavin.king at gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king at gmail.com>>
>
> http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
> http://hibernate.org
> http://seamframework.org
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