@Martijn/all, 

Thanks for reaching out to Pivotal/Google. You know best, Google may be a bit tricky considering the lawsuit.

And please cool down about non-responsive or inactive peopple in the JCP or elsewhere. As you know best (though you are not the primary rep for LJC there any more), the JSR 364 EG EC and other JCP.next initiatives were keen to get people involved, but we don't want "Vanity Members" who just claim they are on a list or get their "pin stripe" full of JSR or other Open Source "memberships" without ever contributing more than to say "Hello" or "Goodbye" in a mailing list. Regardless of his or Interface 21's/SpringSource's contribtion to the larger Java ecosystem, the former Co Spec Lead or JSR 330 Rod Johnson was exactly that case (I personally whitnessed his "15 min. of Fame" in a single EC F2F where he then vanished and was never seen) 

And especially in JSR 354 Crazy Bob has been equally invisible. Which is why Anatole wanted to have a word with him about still being on the EG or not.

We need people like Antoine who try to get things done now, not "filibusters" or some "bust" in a "Hall of Fame" (well, to some extent that's what the "Rock Stars" are for), neither in this JSR nor others. There could be other roles for them from "Observer" to "Contributor" (if JSR 364 concludes) so please try your best to get 364 or 358 out, but spare this here.

Cheers,

Werner

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Martijn Verburg <martijnverburg@gmail.com> wrote:

FYI - I've sent a note to the various folks from Google, Pivotal et al, I'll let Antoine explain the CDI 2.0 proposal to them and I'm sure they'll either join this mailing list / discussion or we'll quickly find out there's no appetite and we can move on.

Cheers,
Martijn

On 3 July 2014 09:51, Martijn Verburg <martijnverburg@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

To be blunt, this is a social/community issue - not a technical one.  We simply need to get hold of the folks at Pivotal, Google (and other 330 EG members) and get them around the virtual table.  If they subsequently aren't interested then fine, you should forge your own path.

There's an absolute mega ton of 330 based DI code out there and 330 compliant containers, if CDI 2.0 wants to be the defacto std going forwards it simply can't afford ignore that.

@Antoine - let's put our heads together and see who we need to get hold of in the 330 group, I think CDI 2.0 has strong merits and should be explored.

@Werner - your comments about Bob's commitment (considering what he's done for the tech community at large, let alone Java) are highly inappropriate, please refrain from personal attacks on this or any other public forum.

Cheers,
Martijn

On 3 July 2014 09:02, Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves@gmail.com> wrote:

> To sum up, as a Java EE user (like I have been for 10 years) I’d be happy to see this (scenario 2), but as CDI spec lead I fear that it could lead us in a trap (going to scenario 1 or consuming precious time on AtInject+1 instead of CDI 2.0)

Well, I'm not spec lead, I'm just a Java EE user... so I like scenario 2 ;o)

But on the other hand, I think there is so much work to be done around CDI 2.0, parts, and taking those parts to other specifications that battling with JSR 330 might be time consuming. I would go for scenario 1.... and cross fingers

On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:18 PM, Werner Keil <werner.keil@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Antoine/all,

Thanks for the detailed overview and trying to reach out to the former Spec Leads and EG of JSR 330. I also copied Anatole, Spec Lead of JSR 354, since Bob Lee is officially in his EG, but has practically never provided input there either (like we tend to see sometimes from others considered "Rock Stars" of the Java Community but since then seemingly resting on their laurels or just too busy counting their stock options?) 

Given CDI already was the public perception of "javax.inject" for most parts, I don't necessarily see that it had to be an MR to the original JSR, though as those involved in the EC (Martijn, Badr/MoroccoJUG,..) could probably check with the PMO how to handle a case where the Maintenance Lead of a JSR was not in the position to continue. I last met Jürgen Höller about a year ago in Copenhagen, so for Pivotal's part as Co Spec Lead, I guess he or the likes of Josh Long could be best to speak to. Happy to get you in touch with them if you want.

Red Hat was also EG member of JSR 330, so Pete, Gavin or whoever else was there (I remember him from conversations where Mike Keith and I took part in synergy discussions between 330 and CDI 1.0) at the time could also help you with this.

In theory this could also be part of a new JSR (CDI 2) as long as none of the enhancements you have in mind break the existing API of JSR 330. The scope of CDI 2 to work in an SE/standalone or more lightweight environment than Java EE environment raises a good question of package names like " javax.enterprise.inject.*" So maybe there is room for synergies in a package namespace other than "javax.enterprise" at least for new things you have in mind.

Kind Regards,

Werner Keil | JCP Executive Committee Member, JSR 363 Co Spec Lead | Eclipse UOMo Lead, Babel Language Champion | Apache Committer

Twitter @wernerkeil | @UnitAPI | @JSR354 | #EclipseUOMo | #Java_Social | #DevOps

Skype werner.keil | Google+ gplus.to/wernerkeil

* Developer Week: 14/15 Jul 2014, Nürnberg, Germany. Werner Keil, JCP EC Member, JSR 363 Spec Lead, DevOps Guy will present "Triple-E' class Continuous Delivery", "JSR 363 and IoT" (GER)

* JavaZone 2014: 9-11 Sep 2014, Oslo, Norway. Werner Keil, JCP EC Member, JSR 363 Spec Lead will present "JSR 363 - The Answer to Life Science and the Internet of Everything"

* JavaOne 2014: Sep 28-Oct 2 2014, San Francisco, USA, Werner Keil, JCP EC Member, JSR 354 EG Member will host "Java and Digital Currencies, Friend or FOE"

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* Mobile Developer Conference kompakt: 18 Nov 2014, Hamburg, Germany. Werner Keil, JCP EC Member, Apache DeviceMap Committer will present "Apache DeviceMap" (GER)

On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 10:43 PM, Antoine Sabot-Durand <antoine@sabot-durand.net> wrote:

Hi all,

Since the first mention of CDI 2.0 preparation work, we've received a lot of comment about JSR 330 evolution. With the release of the proposal draft yesterday, this topic came up again. So let me give my point of view on this subject to have an open discussion here.

When we started to discuss about modularity with Pete in last november, my first idea was to go see what we could add in JSR 330 to make it a true specification that could be the first module of CDI. My idea at that time was to discuss with JSR 330 owner to see if we could bring basic concept we have in CDI to AtInject spec. In my mind the main features would have been:
 - Enhance the javax.inject.Provider<T> interface to bring it at the same level than javax.enterprise.inject.Instance<T>. That would have included support for AnnotationLiteral and TypeLiteral as well
 - Add a Container interface (a very light BeanManger) in JSR 330 to be able to resolve beans instance from outside managed beans
 - Add a mechanism to get this Container from non managed beans (like we get access to BeanManager from JNDI or CDI class)

At that time, I contacted Bob Lee without success (didn’t tried Pivotal since I don’t have contact there). I checked with JCP what could be done if we’d like to see an evolution of JSR 330 and the owner doesn’t care, there seems to have solutions but I let it aside since we were in the middle of CDI 1.2 MR at that time.

Today I’m a bit torn about this point. Working on opening JSR 330 could be like opening pandora box, since I see 2 scenarios :

1) former JSR 330 owners wake up and are ok to get for a new spec version they lead:
Knowing the history of JSR 330 vs JSR 299 I’m not sure everything we’d need would be heard and even if the people leading this would be cooperative, a lot of discussion and negotiation would be needed to be sure that this new AtInject wouldn’t contain features incompatible with CDI. So it’d be very time consuming with no guarantee to get what we’d need at the end.

2) former JSR 330 owner don’t mind others take ownership of their spec to enhance it and we (Red Hat) are the one to take this ownership to secure CDI:
The best solution to minimize risk. But leading a new specification is a lot more work than just deciding that we have a specific basic inject « part » in  CDI 2.0. Leading a spec is very time consuming, so it could be better on the paper but will impact CDI 2.0 new features.

To sum up, as a Java EE user (like I have been for 10 years) I’d be happy to see this (scenario 2), but as CDI spec lead I fear that it could lead us in a trap (going to scenario 1 or consuming precious time on AtInject+1 instead of CDI 2.0)

Your input, solutions or comment would be appreciated on this point.

Antoine

--

Antonio Goncalves
Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author

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