Hey Dan, you're about an hour late to the party :) we've been discussing and Eichard has given me some info and code to look at and read through.

Cool. I just wanted to make sure I made the discussion public.

As for the non dep idea, I can certainly understand where Lincoln and Pete are coming from. I do wonder though if that would preclude us from creating a CDI extension for rolling our own simple CRUD framework perhaps with an spi for future expansion. That be a bit much though. At any rate I need to go through the stuff Richard has sent me and give some feedback.

First, I want to acknowledge that Richard is working with requirements that specify no deps. Being reminded of that, the design in the scaffolding makes sense. So I don't mean to question your choice in working within that requirement.

My personal viewpoint, which I recognize may have no relevance, is that this is an extreme requirement. So I'm challenging the requirement, not the implementation :)

I think the goal to make a pure Java EE application is absurd. If anything, it reveals the shortcomings and verbosity in Java EE 6 more than it shows how great it is. I get that we don't want to inflate the project with libraries, but to say that you can't have a single JAR file extra from Java EE, well, I just don't buy it.

I *suppose* we can have multiple providers. Either way, as Richard said, Java EE 6 needs a decent CRUD and Query framework and whether it goes into the default Forge scaffolding or not, 99% of developers are going to want to use it if it's available.

-Dan