I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration from HipChat to Stride. Basically they have not gotten Stride feature-complete in terms of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration. However, they are reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate anyway. The list of missing features they sent me are: 1. Guest access 2. Some admin controls and compliance settings 3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira Server app is currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular integrations. See all available Stride integrations <http://click.mailer.atlassian.com/?qs=6712850cb7a4f2d4a207f46e5f190a45485... . 4. User management via API 5. Dark mode I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2). (3) is nice-to-have, but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at some point. I think (1) is the only one that is concerning. Though TBH for myself personally, I do not think registering is a big deal. Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on asking them to proceed with our migration to Stride. _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev

On 17 May 2018 at 19:11, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Hi Steve, > > Hum. I see at least 1/ and 3/ as being annoying. I personally like to have > the JIRA/GitHub/Jenkins notifications on HipChat. JIRA and GitHub integrations are available already. I'm confident Jenkins won't take long: - https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/STRIDE-1973 > What would be the advantages of migrating so soon? We'll know sooner if we like it :)

By the way, you say it’s clear we don’t want to stay on HipChat. When did we decide that? I don’t remember a discussion about it.

For sure, we probably won’t have a choice because there’s a good chance Atlassian will close the service but what are the problems that make a migration so urgent? > Le 17 mai 2018 à 20:16, Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; a écrit : > > lol, I was writing about the same to the team list. > > +1 to have people register, it's better for them anyway. I checked > it's easier to self-register. > > +1 to migrate quickly. It's clear we don't want to stay on HipChat, if > this doesn't work out we'll see. > > Refer to my parallel email for Fedora instructions. > > Thanks, > Sanne > > >> On 17 May 2018 at 19:03, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: >> I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration from HipChat >> to Stride. Basically they have not gotten Stride feature-complete in terms >> of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration. However, they are >> reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate anyway. >> The list of missing features they sent me are: >> >> >> 1. Guest access >> 2. Some admin controls and compliance settings >> 3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira Server app is >> currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular integrations. See >> all available Stride integrations >> <http://click.mailer.atlassian.com/?qs=6712850cb7a4f2d4a207f46e5f190a45485... >> . >> 4. User management via API >> 5. Dark mode >> >> I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2). (3) is nice-to-have, >> but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at some point. >> >> I think (1) is the only one that is concerning. Though TBH for myself >> personally, I do not think registering is a big deal. >> >> Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on asking them to proceed with our >> migration to Stride. >> _______________________________________________ >> hibernate-dev mailing list >> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev

Steve pointed out multiple flaws e.g. the native client packaging broken on Fedora, to which Atlassian pretty much replied by letting us know they won't invest in HipChat as the future is Stride. We can choose when to switch but staying doesn't look sensible to me as it certainly won't improve; it's also likely that they'll want everyone migrated eventually so to shut the existing service down.

I'm working more on the WildFly side of things and need to login to multiple instances I really look forward to a better system (hopefully it is!?).

Question, since you want a decision: are you only suggesting to delay or suggesting that you should rather stay on HipChat?

Personally, I'm fine delaying a bit even though I can live happily without Jenkins notifications, but let's hear the others as well.

From my point of view, it seems like a rushed decision that won't solve the

Just out of curiosity, when choosing a replacement for HipChat, have you considered Zulip? Infinispan uses that for about a month now and besides being too colourful (similar to HipChat) there's been positive feedback, especially due to the threading feature. Radim [trying to lure everyone to the same client] On 05/18/2018 12:16 AM, Sanne Grinovero wrote: > On 17 May 2018 at 20:32, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> By the way, you say it’s clear we don’t want to stay on HipChat. >> >> When did we decide that? I don’t remember a discussion about it. > I didn't say it was decided, but I think we're working on that since > Steve asked about it today. To which I agree *because* it seems clear > to me that we don't want to stay on it - a notion I inferred from > multiple previous discussions. > > Steve pointed out multiple flaws e.g. the native client packaging > broken on Fedora, to which Atlassian pretty much replied by letting us > know they won't invest in HipChat as the future is Stride. We can > choose when to switch but staying doesn't look sensible to me as it > certainly won't improve; it's also likely that they'll want everyone > migrated eventually so to shut the existing service down. > > I for one gave up as well installing the native client and have been > using the web client since setting up my new workstation, as I was > expecting Stride to arrive soon. > > The other day some people tried to join and gave up because of login > complexity - that's IMO a very bad sign: not welcoming community > people means it's failing its primary requirements. > > And let's not forget all authentication nonsense; especially days that > I'm working more on the WildFly side of things and need to login to > multiple instances I really look forward to a better system (hopefully > it is!?). > > Question, since you want a decision: are you only suggesting to delay > or suggesting that you should rather stay on HipChat? > > Personally, I'm fine delaying a bit even though I can live happily > without Jenkins notifications, but let's hear the others as well. > > Thanks, > Sanne > > >> For sure, we probably won’t have a choice because there’s a good chance Atlassian will close the service but what are the problems that make a migration so urgent? >> >>> Le 17 mai 2018 à 20:16, Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; a écrit : >>> >>> lol, I was writing about the same to the team list. >>> >>> +1 to have people register, it's better for them anyway. I checked >>> it's easier to self-register. >>> >>> +1 to migrate quickly. It's clear we don't want to stay on HipChat, if >>> this doesn't work out we'll see. >>> >>> Refer to my parallel email for Fedora instructions. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Sanne >>> >>> >>>> On 17 May 2018 at 19:03, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: >>>> I got an email from Atlassian this morning about the migration from HipChat >>>> to Stride. Basically they have not gotten Stride feature-complete in terms >>>> of HipChat which is the trigger for the mass migration. However, they are >>>> reaching out to all waiting teams to see if any want to migrate anyway. >>>> The list of missing features they sent me are: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. Guest access >>>> 2. Some admin controls and compliance settings >>>> 3. Integrations with Atlassian server products (the Jira Server app is >>>> currently in beta and coming soon) and some other popular integrations. See >>>> all available Stride integrations >>>> <http://click.mailer.atlassian.com/?qs=6712850cb7a4f2d4a207f46e5f190a45485... >>>> . >>>> 4. User management via API >>>> 5. Dark mode >>>> >>>> I am not really sure exactly what is missing WRT (2). (3) is nice-to-have, >>>> but not blocker IMO assuming it gets added at some point. >>>> >>>> I think (1) is the only one that is concerning. Though TBH for myself >>>> personally, I do not think registering is a big deal. >>>> >>>> Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on asking them to proceed with our >>>> migration to Stride. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> hibernate-dev mailing list >>>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hibernate-dev mailing list >>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev

You can't "do your job" without yet another way to get notified of CI job status? I'm confused - did Jenkins remove all of its other forms of notification? ;) Seriously though, I've never understood this desire to have yet another communications "inbox" spammed by automated notifications - and its even worse in Hip Cat because I can never hide them. So it is hard for me to incorporate this into the argument against moving.

Y'all really wanted to move to Hip Chat in the first place even though to me it always felt (and feels) half-baked itself.

And if the web client is as good as the native client, I assume you use the web client instead?

So to me it really comes down to what are the blockers to not making this move now. So far I hear: 1. No Jenkins notifications - see above 2. Guest access - meh - If having to have an account to join the discussion is bad then we should immediately make our forums guest-accessible again as well ;) As mentioned in my email, I don't mind not having guest access if we have

1. There may be better options out there - at some point can we just pick one and use it? Is one "inbox" really that much better than another "inbox"? And clearly I am not even tied to Hip Chat - I was one of the people wanting to not move there. Radim, what makes Zulip so amazing? 2. "Coordination tool"? Not really sure what this one is about. Is this back to Jenkins notifications? If you mean a communications tool, of course it works. They are largely the same. Andrea, Sanne and I have played with it, so we in fact do have some idea if it will (spoiler: it does) 3. We should go where WildFly goes (?). My main point is that we have no idea if Stride is stable at the moment.

I think the problem here is about how we're choosing to migrate to another tool. We are basically moving to Stride because Atlassian is being uncooperative with updating HipChat, even though Stride is still not fully functional. Atlassian made HipChat, and we're not happy with HipChat. Atlassian made Stride too, so let's not trust them blindly? Sure, we can always move to another platform after moving to Stride, but it'll be a waste of time for everyone. Let's see what our options really are, first! I don't think we have many needs, and frankly I don't care which tool we'll be using. I'd rather it be open source, but I'll just use whatever we pick in the end, as long as I can write messages and receive messages. But I want people to be on this platform: both the team, and ideally community members. So let's just make sure everyone is at least comfortable with our choice. Sure some features are not useful to everybody, but in the end it's a matter of taste and personal workflow, and we can't argue about that without enforcing a standardized workflow. I think it would be more useful to just list what we want, then see which platforms fit best, then pick one, compromising as needed. I started a document to compare various solutions, feel free to add anything you think is relevant: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oiI_SO4O5OwTx7Fd8_lvhOvVcIIYLbnSY... ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do not provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently removes OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan team has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip instance? Of course if we could host it ourselves it would be another story, but I doubt anyone wants to add that to the list of tools we currently maintain. On Mon, 21 May 2018 at 14:02 Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; > wrote: > > > You can't "do your job" without yet another way to get notified of CI job > > status? I'm confused - did Jenkins remove all of its other forms of > > notification? ;) Seriously though, I've never understood this desire > to > > have yet another communications "inbox" spammed by automated > notifications > > - and its even worse in Hip Cat because I can never hide them. So it is > > hard for me to incorporate this into the argument against moving. > > > > Typically, for the websites builds, I like to have the notifications on > HipChat. Not vital but it's something I appreciate. > > > > Y'all really wanted to move to Hip Chat in the first place even though to > > me it always felt (and feels) half-baked itself. > > > > I wasn't part of the team at that point. > > > > And if the web client is as good as the native client, I assume you use > > the web client instead? > > > > Yes. I have a pinned tab for it. Desktop notifications from the browser are > well integrated now. > > > > So to me it really comes down to what are the blockers to not making this > > move now. So far I hear: > > > > 1. No Jenkins notifications - see above > > 2. Guest access - meh - If having to have an account to join the > > discussion is bad then we should immediately make our forums > > guest-accessible again as well ;) > > > > As mentioned in my email, I don't mind not having guest access if we have > some sort of external auth integration (Github/Twitter/Google). This way, > it avoids creating yet another account. That's what we have on our new > forums. > > Maybe Stride has it, I don't know, but I would like our next chat system to > have that. > > I took a look at several accounts we have on our forums and most of them > are from GitHub or Google (I took seven randomly and 1 had an account > specific to our forums - no better statistics sorry). > > > > > 1. There may be better options out there - at some point can we just > > pick one and use it? Is one "inbox" really that much better than > another > > "inbox"? And clearly I am not even tied to Hip Chat - I was one of > the > > people wanting to not move there. Radim, what makes Zulip so amazing? > > 2. "Coordination tool"? Not really sure what this one is about. Is > > this back to Jenkins notifications? If you mean a communications > tool, of > > course it works. They are largely the same. Andrea, Sanne and I have > > played with it, so we in fact do have some idea if it will (spoiler: > it > > does) > > 3. We should go where WildFly goes (?). > > > > My main point is that we have no idea if Stride is stable at the moment. > They definitely don't want to massively migrate the HipChat users and I > found at least one comment of a person who has migrated there and is not > happy at all (not saying it makes all the migrated users unhappy, just > saying that it might be a bad move if we do it now). > > So again, what problem are we trying to solve by migrating to Stride while > it's still a work in progress? Because you reversed the question but it is > the correct question. > > - If it is the client issue, is the Stride client better integrated? And is > it enough to trigger the migration? > - If it's the access difficulty, does Stride allow external > authentications? Because that's what external users want. > - If it's the "it's a pain to be logged in to multiple instances", are we > all moving to Stride and will it solve the issue - meaning is it easier to > be connected to multiple instances? > - Other issues I'm not aware of? > > When you want to migrate to something new, you ponder the risks with the > benefits. For now, noone has stated any clear benefit, apart from "it's > new" and "HipChat has issues but we don't know if they will be solved by > Stride". > > Note that my position is not "we should stay on HipChat forever" because we > can't as they will close the service at some point. My position is: > - I'm not sure the risk of moving to a half-baked system is worth it if > there are no clear benefits (I would wait a bit) > - is Stride gonna solve our issues or do we need to move to another system? > (because if it's the case, let's avoid the Stride square). > > -- > Guillaume > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > -- Yoann Rodiere yoann(a)hibernate.org / yrodiere(a)redhat.com Software Engineer Hibernate NoORM team _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free > hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do not > provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently removes > OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan team > has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip > instance? > Quote: "Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide variety of non-commercial entities" What bugged me first was the capped archives of the free offer. HipChat is doing a very similar thing. -- Guillaume

+1 to test Zulip, thanks for setting it up Yoann. Personally having used it quite a bit with other projects: it has potential but it's not particularly polished yet; in particular the mobile client has severe issues, and people are quite often failing to use the "topics" correctly. In the news today, Atlassian is killing both HipChat and Stride; Started a partnership to move to Slack: - https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/new-atlassian-slack-partnership I've been forced to use Slack as well for yet another group. Sadly not OSS and infamous for needing tons of memory, but it's working very well and has some very thouroughly well designed features. So this raises more question.. - will Zulip catch up? - Do we prefer a half baked solution just because it's open? - Is the humoungous memory requirement of Slack a real problem? Tempted to just get back to IRC :/ The Atlassian&Slack partnership however is likely just a small step towards more interesting integrations across the products. On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 at 21:56, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > > I encountered yet another problem with HipChat [1], so I created a > Hibernate organization in Zulip. Turns out GitHub and Google authentication > are available even in the free plan. > > Anyone cares to join me to test it? It's here: > https://hibernate.zulipchat.com/# > > [1] > https://bitbucket.org/hipchat/hipchat-github-addon/issues/4/cant-add-orga... > > Yoann Rodière > Hibernate NoORM Team > yoann(a)hibernate.org > > > On Tue, 22 May 2018 at 10:50, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > > > On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; > > wrote: > > > >> ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free > >> hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do not > >> provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently removes > >> OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan team > >> has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip > >> instance? > >> > > > > Quote: "Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide > > variety of non-commercial entities" > > > > What bugged me first was the capped archives of the free offer. > > > > HipChat is doing a very similar thing. > > > > -- > > Guillaume > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev

So, I guess this closes the "Stride" case: we won't use it. I quite like Zulip, but I must admit it doesn't do much to make life easy for new users. This choice of theirs to make topics mandatory (or at least *seemingly* mandatory), in particular, is very likely to confuse new users, be it Hibernate Users joining to look for help, or even people in our team. So even though I like it, I think a lot of people won't, so they won't use it much, which kind of defeats the purpose of a communication tool. Slack would do the trick, I guess, and since most of our rooms are public we don't care that they probably use the data for their own profit (with such a trove of data, I would be surprised if they didn't). There are alternative solutions, though. Of course there are the clones of Slack such Rocket Chat and Mattermost. I just created a RocketChat instance: https://hibernate.rocket.chat/channel/general There is also gitter, which apparently some people in our team have been starting to use: https://gitter.im/hibernate/hibernate-orm . No JIRA integration there, though. I think in the end it will all come down to what people in our team are most comfortable with. Whatever the technology and its future, what we need most is everyone to be happy with it. We can deal with yet another switch in the future, but in the meantime we need everyone to use whatever we picked. And in this regard, it would help if people made their preferences known... Anyone? Yoann Rodière Hibernate NoORM Team yoann(a)hibernate.org On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 08:43, Sanne Grinovero <sanne(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > +1 to test Zulip, thanks for setting it up Yoann. > > Personally having used it quite a bit with other projects: it has > potential but it's not particularly polished yet; in particular the > mobile client has severe issues, and people are quite often failing to > use the "topics" correctly. > > In the news today, Atlassian is killing both HipChat and Stride; > Started a partnership to move to Slack: > - > https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/new-atlassian-slack-partnership > > I've been forced to use Slack as well for yet another group. Sadly not > OSS and infamous for needing tons of memory, but it's working very > well and has some very thouroughly well designed features. > > So this raises more question.. > > - will Zulip catch up? > > - Do we prefer a half baked solution just because it's open? > > - Is the humoungous memory requirement of Slack a real problem? > > Tempted to just get back to IRC :/ > > The Atlassian&Slack partnership however is likely just a small step > towards more interesting integrations across the products. > On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 at 21:56, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > > > > I encountered yet another problem with HipChat [1], so I created a > > Hibernate organization in Zulip. Turns out GitHub and Google > authentication > > are available even in the free plan. > > > > Anyone cares to join me to test it? It's here: > > https://hibernate.zulipchat.com/# > > > > [1] > > > https://bitbucket.org/hipchat/hipchat-github-addon/issues/4/cant-add-orga... > > > > Yoann Rodière > > Hibernate NoORM Team > > yoann(a)hibernate.org > > > > > > On Tue, 22 May 2018 at 10:50, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet(a)gmail.com&gt; > > wrote: > > > > > On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Yoann Rodiere <yoann(a)hibernate.org&gt; > > > wrote: > > > > > >> ... But I think the one criteria that will make us pick Stride is free > > >> hosting. Most other platforms either do not have a free plan, or do > not > > >> provide all of their features to free plan users. Zulip apparently > removes > > >> OAuth authentication in its free plan, for instance. The Infinispan > team > > >> has OAuth authentication enabled though... Do they pay for their Zulip > > >> instance? > > >> > > > > > > Quote: "Zulip Cloud Premium is free for open source projects and a wide > > > variety of non-commercial entities" > > > > > > What bugged me first was the capped archives of the free offer. > > > > > > HipChat is doing a very similar thing. > > > > > > -- > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hibernate-dev mailing list > > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of > topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more casual > lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject > channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack. > > Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And yes > their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really > nice. > I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a month, maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so, there's usually only one discussion in parallel).

The rest of the time, we just share in the channel. If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always need 2 clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a topic or create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat. For our usage I find it a bit suboptimal. I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad Zulip's is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages? Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip. Never used Slack. -- Guillaume

In practice, what happens when a discussion spans multiple topics? On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote: > >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; > >wrote: > > > >> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of > >> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more casual > >> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject > >> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack. > >> > >> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And yes > >> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really > >> nice. > >> > > > >I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a month, > >maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so, > >there's usually only one discussion in parallel). > > If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches up, > then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for an > example. > > Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very good > organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual > conversation happened. > > > > >The rest of the time, we just share in the channel. > > > >If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always need > 2 > >clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a topic > or > >create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat. For > >our usage I find it a bit suboptimal. > > > >I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad > Zulip's > >is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages? > > > >Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip. > > > >Never used Slack. > > > >-- > >Guillaume > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev >

I am not asking about a "supart". Think about topics that we cross post to hibernate-dev and willdfly-dev or hibernate-dev and infinispan-dev... so the discussion *simultaneously* spans multiple topics/audiences.

On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:27 AM Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > Same as in an email thread, you change the topic for a subpart of your > conversation. You can opt to fork the topic name at a > given point in time retroactively (which you don't get for emails). > > On Mon 18-07-30 9:10, Steve Ebersole wrote: > >In practice, what happens when a discussion spans multiple topics? > > > > > >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; > >wrote: > > > >> On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote: > >> >On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard < > emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; > >> >wrote: > >> > > >> >> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion of > >> >> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more > casual > >> >> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject > >> >> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack. > >> >> > >> >> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. And > yes > >> >> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really > >> >> nice. > >> >> > >> > > >> >I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a > month, > >> >maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so, > >> >there's usually only one discussion in parallel). > >> > >> If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches up, > >> then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for an > >> example. > >> > >> Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very good > >> organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual > >> conversation happened. > >> > >> > > >> >The rest of the time, we just share in the channel. > >> > > >> >If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always > need > >> 2 > >> >clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a > topic > >> or > >> >create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat. > For > >> >our usage I find it a bit suboptimal. > >> > > >> >I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad > >> Zulip's > >> >is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages? > >> > > >> >Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip. > >> > > >> >Never used Slack. > >> > > >> >-- > >> >Guillaume > >> _______________________________________________ > >> hibernate-dev mailing list > >> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > >> > _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev

If we must compare Zulip to emails, cross-posting to multiple mailing lists would be equivalent to posting to different "streams", which are the equivalent of "rooms" in HipChat or "channels" in IRC. Short answer is: you can't do that, you have to duplicate the conversation. But so would you in HipChat, or IRC, or Slack, or any chat software I've ever heard of. If you are talking about have a single conversation inside a single "stream"/"room"/"channel" with multiple topics (like "JPA 2.2, CDI integration, and also cache SPIs"), well... create a topic just for that ("JPA+CDI+Caches"). Or use the default topic (called "(no topic)"). I don't think the primary reason for topics is archiving and finding older conversation. They help doing that, but their main purpose is to enable multiple concurrent conversation to run their course *in parallel, in a single "stream"/"room"/"channel"*. You can just focus on one topic and temporarily ignore all other topics. Which is nice, but not necessarily important in our case, since it's quite rare that we have multiple conversations going on simultaneously in a given room. Though one could argue that it's rare precisely because we don't have topics and understanding each other would be very difficult.

Yoann Rodière Hibernate NoORM Team yoann(a)hibernate.org On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 at 17:45, Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org&gt; wrote: > I am not asking about a "supart". Think about topics that we cross post to > hibernate-dev and willdfly-dev or hibernate-dev and infinispan-dev... so > the discussion *simultaneously* spans multiple topics/audiences. > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:27 AM Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; > wrote: > >> Same as in an email thread, you change the topic for a subpart of your >> conversation. You can opt to fork the topic name at a >> given point in time retroactively (which you don't get for emails). >> >> On Mon 18-07-30 9:10, Steve Ebersole wrote: >>> In practice, what happens when a discussion spans multiple topics? >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:43 AM Emmanuel Bernard < > emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri 18-07-27 14:38, Guillaume Smet wrote: >>>>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:31 PM Emmanuel Bernard < >> emmanuel(a)hibernate.org&gt; >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I like Zulip a lot. I've been using it extensively and the notion > of >>>>>> topic (like a email subjet) is a big +1 for me and for any more >> casual >>>>>> lurker. Also it reduces the proliferation of one off/single subject >>>>>> channel that a lurker always miss in tools like Slack. >>>>>> >>>>>> Granted Zulip topics are a bit offsetting for the first 5 posts. > And >> yes >>>>>> their mobile client is really bad. But the desktop client is really >>>>>> nice. >>>>>> >>>>> I'm not really excited about topics. We might need a topic once a >> month, >>>>> maybe less, when we start a big discussion on a subject (and even so, >>>>> there's usually only one discussion in parallel). >>>> If you want to accept the Hibernate community in this and it catches > up, >>>> then you will have parallel discussions. Join the Infinispan one for > an >>>> example. >>>> >>>> Also even if one conversation happens at a given time, it is a very > good >>>> organiser for someone that is catching up on subject after the actual >>>> conversation happened. >>>> >>>>> The rest of the time, we just share in the channel. >>>>> >>>>> If they were optional, that would do but they are not and you always >> need >>>> 2 >>>>> clicks to share (e.g. go to the right stream, then either choose a >> topic >>>> or >>>>> create new topic), whereas you're at most one click away on HipChat. >> For >>>>> our usage I find it a bit suboptimal. >>>>> >>>>> I use the HipChat mobile client from time to time, not sure how bad >>>> Zulip's >>>>> is. Can you at least follow the streams and post messages? >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, it's more a -0 than a -1 for Zulip. >>>>> >>>>> Never used Slack. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Guillaume >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> hibernate-dev mailing list >>>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev >>>> > _______________________________________________ > hibernate-dev mailing list > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev > _______________________________________________ hibernate-dev mailing list hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev