I think it is best to document the features that you believe critical for smooth development AND for building a community of users, developers and enthusiasts. And let's have the community contribute to that list and discuss them. 

I know what the current wiki does and I know very well what Jive SBS does and doesn't do (I've implemented or helped implement the SBS and its predecessors into really effective solutions for KM and community building - which included customizations). I'm sure some other community members may have experience with SBS as well. Once we have all this in the open, then perhaps everyone could see why you believe SBS is not the right way to go or... still disagree with you.

I know that you have strong opinions on certain issues, and your input does matter a lot, but please keep in mind that other developers and users bring different and valuable perspectives, and they need to be treated with respect. Specifically the people who use Seam 2 and those why try to adopt Weld and Seam 3. You definitely contributed a lot in the technical department, but that is only part of the success of Seam. The other major parts belong to the user community for using it, promoting it (for free) and providing valuable feedback (again, for free). Don't forget the other developers (at RedHat and beyond). Seam and Weld are open source products and as such are driven by the community. Without the community Seam and Weld would not be where they are today. So you can't claim that you contribute more. Be a good leader and listen to your community, no matter how much you dislike what you hear.

One more point. As you can see, this topic sparked a rather heated debate, with some valid and some off the charts comments. This alone is an indicator that this issue is far from resolved, and the intensity of some of the comments was, no doubt, due to the frustration with the status quo (and in part to your less than appropriate remarks). The community (both developers and users) simply find the current state detriment to building a community. And this whole discussion started off solely because of the need for a better community platform. This need is real and deserves attention and consideration, no matter how many times it was discussed, because it wasn't properly addressed. 

Last thought... As a creator/lead developer, you've done some great work on Seam and CDI. Keep in mind that those who make a product, quite often need other people with different viewpoints (sometimes opposing) in order to effectively market and sell the product and be successful. Just food for thought.

So let's put attitudes aside (that goes to all of us) and let's have some due process, even if it's second or Nth time around. This way no one can say that they didn't have a voice. Does that sound fair?



On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Gavin King <> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Piotr Steininger
> my point is that the current infrastructure is ineffective and inadequate. If we are building
> the best damn framework then let's use the best damn tools to assist us with it.

OK, but my argument is that the infrastructure you're proposing to
replace it with is even
less adequate and is missing features that I consider critical to
community building..