[cdi-dev] With the end of Java Config...
Anatole Tresch
atsticks at gmail.com
Sun Sep 7 15:12:51 EDT 2014
Hi All
unfortunately things seem quite complicated:
- first of all,* similarities with Deltaspike are basically not
accidental*. The concepts we developed in Credit Suisse are very similar
to Deltaspike, though Deltaspike was not yet born at that time. Fortunately
we ended up with a similar kind of solution.
- *filtering still can be done.* My idea is to define some kind of
"configuration provider", which then is dynamically asked for
configuration. How the provider is internally organized, is completely
transparent to CDI. This enables to have multi-layered, complex config
solutions work the same (from a view point of CDI) like simple programmatic
test configurations during unit tests. The config provider still can
support filtering and dynamic resolution as commonly used in configuration
systems. Similarly the format is basically also not fixed. Of course, would
a reference implementation provide a set of functionalities, but I would
definitively not define the exact configuration mechanism as part of the
CDI (or even a EE config JSR). Another reason, beside complexity and time,
is the fact that different companies handle, store and manage configuration
differently, so a mechanism must be flexible enough to accommodate these,
without adoption rate will be low. Furthermore this flexibility also keeps
doors open for use cases we do not know yet.
- Also we have to separate some basically *two types of configuration
aspects:*
- *application config *basically is injected into deployed
components, but basically only can affect deployment to the extend it can
be managed and injected by CDI. The basic architecture and design, how
application servers to load and deploy are basically not affected. This
type of configuration (mechanism) I see also as a possible
addition to CDI,
if we really fail to do something in another JSR. With CDI going
for a more
modular design, even basic configuration of CDI can be possible, given we
have some kind of API, we can access during CDI initialization.
- On the other side *deployment configuration *affects directly how
the application server deploys the application. Configuration here would
allow to define datasources, EJBs, transactional aspects, security,
persistence, war and ear configurations etc. Basically
everything you do as
of today with some kind of XML file, or annotation. Hereby enabling more
flexibility into the existing descriptors is relatively easy, but as
mentioned by Mark, constraint. Adding more flexibility raises
other subtle
problems. Imagine a application module, e.g. a war, that defines
everything
it requires. There is no need to configure anything more on server side
(with spring you can do this, with Java EE unfortunately not).
But this has
a severe consequence, it would make the application really
portable in the
sense, that it can be moved between different app servers
(vendors) without
any change (ideally). As a result commercial profits of some vendor
companies may be affected. I think this is actually one of the
key points,
why things are getting so complicated in that area.
- *Legal aspects* also were discussed. One of them is a possible legal
clash of ALv2 with GPL. This is the case already within Glassfish, but one
of the reasons, why ALv2 was not acceptable to Oracle's legal department.
At the end we decided to use a BSD model. Even dual licensing BSD/ALv2
could theoretically be an option. If you would choose ALv2, Oracle will not
include your RI into Glassfish, which is the RI for the EE Umbrella JSR,
meaning your JSR will not be included into EE8. So what should we do? I
don't have a good answer...
So, I like to discuss configuration aspects here. Nevertheless if we decide
to add config aspects, be aware that we might only (mainly) support
application config, since everything else directly would impact other JSRs.
And that is obviously quite similar to what Apache Deltaspike is all about
;-)
Cheers,
Anatole
2014-09-07 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mark Struberg <struberg at yahoo.de>:
> Yes, the config group also was (obviously) looking at DeltaSpikes config
> mechanism as well.
> There were others who wanted to go more into the 'filtering' approach as
> done on WebLogic servers (though not sure who else does that as well).
> You know, having all the XML configs like WEB-INF/web.xml containing
> placeholders and the real values only get placed in there at deployment
> time. I personally find this approach a bit limited from a technical
> perspective and it already didn't work out for me when using WebLogic (what
> about changing a configured value after the deployment was done? What about
> security? Having passwords in web.xml, unit testing, ...).
> There are of course also other approaches which all might have strong
> sides and would have needed to get discussed.
>
> But utterly the problem seems to have been legal reasons. We even offered
> to have Anatole/CS lead the EG and do the RI as an ASF project with
> substantial support and participation from the JBoss, DeltaSpike and TomEE
> communities.
>
> Anyway, the time will come when we will resurrect this effort.
>
> LieGrue,
> strub
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, 7 September 2014, 14:29, Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yep, it contains a simple but extendable notion of ProjectStage, too;-)
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 2:19 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Anatole,
>
> I'm wondering if some of your configuration description falls under what
> was put together in DeltaSpike?
>
> http://deltaspike.apache.org/configuration.html
>
> John
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Staging is not a question of xml or not xml (the "format" of config). You
> can do staged config also using xml, or based on a database or json config
> service. Staging as well as, more generally speaking, environment dependent
> config is more like to select/filter the right config that *targets *the
> current (runtime) environment. This might include stages, but also many
> other aspects are feasible and common (server, tier, ear, war, tenant ...).
> Since these aspects are per se very complex, it might be advisable to leave
> them out of any spec (even a dedicated config JSR would probably not be
> capable of covering these within the relatively short EE timeframe)...
>
>
> 2014-09-05 23:30 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>:
>
> Jens/all,
>
> A sort of "staging" already was possible using CDI earlier, see examples
> like this:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16907185/multiple-cdi-configuration-profiles-devel-beta-qa-production-in-one-war
>
> DeltaSpike also includes type-safe staging that goes beyond the primitive,
> hard-coded JSF enum.
>
> If that works without XML, while still allowing flexible configuration for
> different stages or to add and "inject" additional stages maybe even on a
> tenant basis (for Cloud scenarios) I could see something like that work
> without XML. In the Multiconf project we managed to code everything in
> Python, and similar to Puppet or Chef you can configure and deploy multiple
> environments with it, Java EE, Spring or Play! several of them are
> configured this way and it requires no XML (where the container needs such
> files, the framework generates them;-)
>
> Werner
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:21 PM, <cdi-dev-request at lists.jboss.org> wrote:
>
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> 1. Re: Tools : Google Drive vs Asciidoc and Github (Anatole Tresch)
> 2. Re: With the end of Java Config... (Anatole Tresch)
> 3. [JBoss JIRA] (CDI-456) fix Bean#getBeanClass() definition
> (Anatole Tresch (JIRA))
> 4. Re: With the end of Java Config... (Jens Schumann)
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 20:20:53 +0000
> From: Jens Schumann <jens.schumann at openknowledge.de>
> Subject: Re: [cdi-dev] With the end of Java Config...
> To: Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com>, Antonio Goncalves
> <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>
> Cc: cdi-dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>
> Message-ID: <D02FDD99.396B9%jens.schumann at openknowledge.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> I can confirm that this approach works very well. We are using a similar
> approach a couple of years now, and I love the simplicity that comes with
> portable extensions and @Producer methods. See our public version here [1]
> (works since early CDI 1.0 days) .
>
> Instead of a @Inject + Qualifier we just use the qualifier @Property. We
> support default values and type conversation for primitives and everything
> that has a string based constructor. The property source can be anything,
> from property files (default) to databases or xml files. For examples see
> tests here [2].
>
> Nevertheless I am not sure if this should be part of an future CDI spec.
> My concerns include the bloat argument, of course. But the main reason
> relates to the fact that we have almost everything in the current CDI spec
> already.
>
> Right now I am quite happy with an custom portable extension that does
> everything for me. At the time we implemented the extension we realised
> that the "hard part" was writing an extension that links a qualified
> "optional injection point" with an @Producer method while supporting code
> based default values. Luckily I had Arne in my team who did that within a
> few minutes.
>
> Because of this experience I would propose that we simplify extension
> development such that "optional injection points" may be linked to
> @Produces values easily. Additionally we have to solve a few more
> integration issues (e.g. read-only DB access should be available during CDI
> startup). Everything else should be provided by portable extensions (e.g.
> via delta-spike) and documentation/howtos at cdi-spec.org.
>
> Jens
> [1]
> https://github.com/openknowledge/openknowledge-cdi-extensions/tree/master/openknowledge-cdi-common/src/main/java/de/openknowledge/cdi/common/property
> [2]
> https://github.com/openknowledge/openknowledge-cdi-extensions/blob/master/openknowledge-cdi-common/src/test/java/de/openknowledge/cdi/common/property
>
> Von: Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com<mailto:atsticks at gmail.com>>
> Datum: Friday 5 September 2014 21:22
> An: Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com<mailto:
> antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>>
> Cc: CDI-Dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org<mailto:cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>>
> Betreff: Re: [cdi-dev] With the end of Java Config...
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would not like to add an XML "bloated" mechanism as part of CDI 2.0.
> Spontaneously I would propose a more CDI like things like:
>
>
> * Adding a @Configured annotation (basically a qualifier). This can be
> in addition to @Inject and would allow to inject "configured" values.
> * Since configuration can change we may think of a (CDI)
> event/reinject mechanism based on config changes. By default, this is
> switched off and we can discuss how it would be activated, e.g. by an
> additional flag settable with the @Configured annotation, or an additional
> @Observable ConfigChangeEvent (similar to the Griffon framework), or both.
> * Hereby configured values theoretically behave similar as all other
> injection points. They also can be qualified (the aspect of scopes, I did
> not yet have time to think about). The only difference is, that they are
> satisified using the configuration "system".
> * The configuration "source" itself could in the extreme simplest way
> be a Provider<Map<String,String>>. The CDI spec should not care about how
> this map is provided (XML, DB, overrides, etc). This still can be
> standardized later. As long as the ConfigurationSource SPI is defined,
> companies still can hook in the logic and level of configuration
> abstraction they need.
> * Of course, since not only Strings can be injected, we need some
> conversion or adapter logic as basically outlined in my blog. Also here we
> can add a simple SPI and let the details to the RI.
>
> Summarizing a
>
> * @Configured annotation
> * some kind of change event
> * a ConfigurationSource extends Provider<MapString,String>>
> * a conversion mechanism from String to T.
>
> we get a full fledged configuration mechanism that leverages CDI.
>
> That would be my idea basically. WDYT? I will try to work that out in more
> details. Basically it should be implementable even with the CDI mechanism
> already in place with CDI 1.1.
>
> Best,
> Anatole
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2014-09-05 16:08 GMT+02:00 Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com
> <mailto:antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>>:
> One wise man* once said "EJB was a hype specification, we added too many
> things to it, it became bloated. The next hype specifications are JAX-RS
> and CDI, careful with them"
>
> Either we get this idea of "parts" right, or CDI will endup being bloated.
>
> Antonio
>
>
> *David Blevin
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Antoine Sabot-Durand <
> antoine at sabot-durand.net<mailto:antoine at sabot-durand.net>> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> You may have followed the rise and fall of the Java Config JSR (
> http://javaeeconfig.blogspot.ch/2014/09/no-java-ee-configuration-for-ee8-dear.html
> ).
> Anatole in CC was leading this initiative and I proposed him to join us
> and explore if some part of his late-JSR could be done in CDI.
>
> I?m mainly thinking of https://issues.jboss.org/browse/CDI-123 or related
> solution. If we achieve to have a majority of specs to integrate with CDI,
> our configuration solution would therefore become a configuration system
> for all spec based on CDI 2.0.
>
> Antoine
>
>
>
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>
> --
> Antonio Goncalves
> Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
>
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> --
> Anatole Tresch
> Java Lead Engineer, JSR Spec Lead
> Gl?rnischweg 10
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> --
> *Anatole Tresch*
> Java Lead Engineer, JSR Spec Lead
> Glärnischweg 10
> CH - 8620 Wetzikon
>
> *Switzerland, Europe Zurich, GMT+1*
> *Twitter: @atsticks*
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--
*Anatole Tresch*
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Glärnischweg 10
CH - 8620 Wetzikon
*Switzerland, Europe Zurich, GMT+1*
*Twitter: @atsticks*
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