[cdi-dev] With the end of Java Config...
Werner Keil
werner.keil at gmail.com
Sun Sep 7 15:44:09 EDT 2014
Indeed, and with CDI 1.2 (MR) and 2.0 offering even the Spec under ALv2 as
a dual-license, this was discussed by EC Members but both JCP EC and Oracle
Legal/PMO seems fine with it, and CDI is already an essential building
block to Java EE 6/7, hence used with Glassfish, too. I wasn't involved in
these discussions, but given CDI is especially liberal and fully accepted
by JCP formalities and license policies, I don't really see what the
problem wss for Anatole's JSR attempt (though I know, both Oracle and other
EC Members/companies don't always prefer this kind of licensing...;-)
Werner
On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:28 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Ok, this mail has me more concerned than anything. Can you clarify this
> ALv2 statement? AFAIK, Weld (the CDI RI) is ALv2.
>
> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> unfortunately things seem quite complicated:
>>
>> - first of all,* similarities with Deltaspike are basically not
>> accidental*. The concepts we developed in Credit Suisse are very
>> similar to Deltaspike, though Deltaspike was not yet born at that time.
>> Fortunately we ended up with a similar kind of solution.
>> - *filtering still can be done.* My idea is to define some kind of
>> "configuration provider", which then is dynamically asked for
>> configuration. How the provider is internally organized, is completely
>> transparent to CDI. This enables to have multi-layered, complex config
>> solutions work the same (from a view point of CDI) like simple programmatic
>> test configurations during unit tests. The config provider still can
>> support filtering and dynamic resolution as commonly used in configuration
>> systems. Similarly the format is basically also not fixed. Of course, would
>> a reference implementation provide a set of functionalities, but I would
>> definitively not define the exact configuration mechanism as part of the
>> CDI (or even a EE config JSR). Another reason, beside complexity and time,
>> is the fact that different companies handle, store and manage configuration
>> differently, so a mechanism must be flexible enough to accommodate these,
>> without adoption rate will be low. Furthermore this flexibility also keeps
>> doors open for use cases we do not know yet.
>> - Also we have to separate some basically *two types of configuration
>> aspects:*
>> - *application config *basically is injected into deployed
>> components, but basically only can affect deployment to the extend it can
>> be managed and injected by CDI. The basic architecture and design, how
>> application servers to load and deploy are basically not affected. This
>> type of configuration (mechanism) I see also as a possible addition to CDI,
>> if we really fail to do something in another JSR. With CDI going for a more
>> modular design, even basic configuration of CDI can be possible, given we
>> have some kind of API, we can access during CDI initialization.
>> - On the other side *deployment configuration *affects directly
>> how the application server deploys the application. Configuration here
>> would allow to define datasources, EJBs, transactional aspects, security,
>> persistence, war and ear configurations etc. Basically everything you do as
>> of today with some kind of XML file, or annotation. Hereby enabling more
>> flexibility into the existing descriptors is relatively easy, but as
>> mentioned by Mark, constraint. Adding more flexibility raises other subtle
>> problems. Imagine a application module, e.g. a war, that defines everything
>> it requires. There is no need to configure anything more on server side
>> (with spring you can do this, with Java EE unfortunately not). But this has
>> a severe consequence, it would make the application really portable in the
>> sense, that it can be moved between different app servers (vendors) without
>> any change (ideally). As a result commercial profits of some vendor
>> companies may be affected. I think this is actually one of the key points,
>> why things are getting so complicated in that area.
>> - *Legal aspects* also were discussed. One of them is a possible
>> legal clash of ALv2 with GPL. This is the case already within Glassfish,
>> but one of the reasons, why ALv2 was not acceptable to Oracle's legal
>> department. At the end we decided to use a BSD model. Even dual licensing
>> BSD/ALv2 could theoretically be an option. If you would choose ALv2, Oracle
>> will not include your RI into Glassfish, which is the RI for the EE
>> Umbrella JSR, meaning your JSR will not be included into EE8. So what
>> should we do? I don't have a good answer...
>>
>> So, I like to discuss configuration aspects here. Nevertheless if we
>> decide to add config aspects, be aware that we might only (mainly) support
>> application config, since everything else directly would impact other JSRs.
>> And that is obviously quite similar to what Apache Deltaspike is all about
>> ;-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Anatole
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2014-09-07 14:46 GMT+02:00 Mark Struberg <struberg at yahoo.de>:
>>
>>> Yes, the config group also was (obviously) looking at DeltaSpikes config
>>> mechanism as well.
>>> There were others who wanted to go more into the 'filtering' approach as
>>> done on WebLogic servers (though not sure who else does that as well).
>>> You know, having all the XML configs like WEB-INF/web.xml containing
>>> placeholders and the real values only get placed in there at deployment
>>> time. I personally find this approach a bit limited from a technical
>>> perspective and it already didn't work out for me when using WebLogic (what
>>> about changing a configured value after the deployment was done? What about
>>> security? Having passwords in web.xml, unit testing, ...).
>>> There are of course also other approaches which all might have strong
>>> sides and would have needed to get discussed.
>>>
>>> But utterly the problem seems to have been legal reasons. We even
>>> offered to have Anatole/CS lead the EG and do the RI as an ASF project with
>>> substantial support and participation from the JBoss, DeltaSpike and TomEE
>>> communities.
>>>
>>> Anyway, the time will come when we will resurrect this effort.
>>>
>>> LieGrue,
>>> strub
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, 7 September 2014, 14:29, Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yep, it contains a simple but extendable notion of ProjectStage, too;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 2:19 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anatole,
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if some of your configuration description falls under what
>>> was put together in DeltaSpike?
>>>
>>> http://deltaspike.apache.org/configuration.html
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Staging is not a question of xml or not xml (the "format" of config).
>>> You can do staged config also using xml, or based on a database or json
>>> config service. Staging as well as, more generally speaking, environment
>>> dependent config is more like to select/filter the right config that
>>> *targets *the current (runtime) environment. This might include stages,
>>> but also many other aspects are feasible and common (server, tier, ear,
>>> war, tenant ...). Since these aspects are per se very complex, it might be
>>> advisable to leave them out of any spec (even a dedicated config JSR would
>>> probably not be capable of covering these within the relatively short EE
>>> timeframe)...
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-09-05 23:30 GMT+02:00 Werner Keil <werner.keil at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> Jens/all,
>>>
>>> A sort of "staging" already was possible using CDI earlier, see examples
>>> like this:
>>>
>>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16907185/multiple-cdi-configuration-profiles-devel-beta-qa-production-in-one-war
>>>
>>> DeltaSpike also includes type-safe staging that goes beyond the
>>> primitive, hard-coded JSF enum.
>>>
>>> If that works without XML, while still allowing flexible configuration
>>> for different stages or to add and "inject" additional stages maybe even
>>> on a tenant basis (for Cloud scenarios) I could see something like that
>>> work without XML. In the Multiconf project we managed to code everything in
>>> Python, and similar to Puppet or Chef you can configure and deploy multiple
>>> environments with it, Java EE, Spring or Play! several of them are
>>> configured this way and it requires no XML (where the container needs such
>>> files, the framework generates them;-)
>>>
>>> Werner
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:21 PM, <cdi-dev-request at lists.jboss.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Tools : Google Drive vs Asciidoc and Github (Anatole Tresch)
>>> 2. Re: With the end of Java Config... (Anatole Tresch)
>>> 3. [JBoss JIRA] (CDI-456) fix Bean#getBeanClass() definition
>>> (Anatole Tresch (JIRA))
>>> 4. Re: With the end of Java Config... (Jens Schumann)
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 20:20:53 +0000
>>> From: Jens Schumann <jens.schumann at openknowledge.de>
>>> Subject: Re: [cdi-dev] With the end of Java Config...
>>> To: Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com>, Antonio Goncalves
>>> <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: cdi-dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>
>>> Message-ID: <D02FDD99.396B9%jens.schumann at openknowledge.de>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>
>>> I can confirm that this approach works very well. We are using a similar
>>> approach a couple of years now, and I love the simplicity that comes with
>>> portable extensions and @Producer methods. See our public version here [1]
>>> (works since early CDI 1.0 days) .
>>>
>>> Instead of a @Inject + Qualifier we just use the qualifier @Property. We
>>> support default values and type conversation for primitives and everything
>>> that has a string based constructor. The property source can be anything,
>>> from property files (default) to databases or xml files. For examples see
>>> tests here [2].
>>>
>>> Nevertheless I am not sure if this should be part of an future CDI spec.
>>> My concerns include the bloat argument, of course. But the main reason
>>> relates to the fact that we have almost everything in the current CDI spec
>>> already.
>>>
>>> Right now I am quite happy with an custom portable extension that does
>>> everything for me. At the time we implemented the extension we realised
>>> that the "hard part" was writing an extension that links a qualified
>>> "optional injection point" with an @Producer method while supporting code
>>> based default values. Luckily I had Arne in my team who did that within a
>>> few minutes.
>>>
>>> Because of this experience I would propose that we simplify extension
>>> development such that "optional injection points" may be linked to
>>> @Produces values easily. Additionally we have to solve a few more
>>> integration issues (e.g. read-only DB access should be available during CDI
>>> startup). Everything else should be provided by portable extensions (e.g.
>>> via delta-spike) and documentation/howtos at cdi-spec.org.
>>>
>>> Jens
>>> [1]
>>> https://github.com/openknowledge/openknowledge-cdi-extensions/tree/master/openknowledge-cdi-common/src/main/java/de/openknowledge/cdi/common/property
>>> [2]
>>> https://github.com/openknowledge/openknowledge-cdi-extensions/blob/master/openknowledge-cdi-common/src/test/java/de/openknowledge/cdi/common/property
>>>
>>> Von: Anatole Tresch <atsticks at gmail.com<mailto:atsticks at gmail.com>>
>>> Datum: Friday 5 September 2014 21:22
>>> An: Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves at gmail.com<mailto:
>>> antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>>
>>> Cc: CDI-Dev <cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org<mailto:cdi-dev at lists.jboss.org>>
>>> Betreff: Re: [cdi-dev] With the end of Java Config...
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I would not like to add an XML "bloated" mechanism as part of CDI 2.0.
>>> Spontaneously I would propose a more CDI like things like:
>>>
>>>
>>> * Adding a @Configured annotation (basically a qualifier). This can
>>> be in addition to @Inject and would allow to inject "configured" values.
>>> * Since configuration can change we may think of a (CDI)
>>> event/reinject mechanism based on config changes. By default, this is
>>> switched off and we can discuss how it would be activated, e.g. by an
>>> additional flag settable with the @Configured annotation, or an additional
>>> @Observable ConfigChangeEvent (similar to the Griffon framework), or both.
>>> * Hereby configured values theoretically behave similar as all other
>>> injection points. They also can be qualified (the aspect of scopes, I did
>>> not yet have time to think about). The only difference is, that they are
>>> satisified using the configuration "system".
>>> * The configuration "source" itself could in the extreme simplest
>>> way be a Provider<Map<String,String>>. The CDI spec should not care about
>>> how this map is provided (XML, DB, overrides, etc). This still can be
>>> standardized later. As long as the ConfigurationSource SPI is defined,
>>> companies still can hook in the logic and level of configuration
>>> abstraction they need.
>>> * Of course, since not only Strings can be injected, we need some
>>> conversion or adapter logic as basically outlined in my blog. Also here we
>>> can add a simple SPI and let the details to the RI.
>>>
>>> Summarizing a
>>>
>>> * @Configured annotation
>>> * some kind of change event
>>> * a ConfigurationSource extends Provider<MapString,String>>
>>> * a conversion mechanism from String to T.
>>>
>>> we get a full fledged configuration mechanism that leverages CDI.
>>>
>>> That would be my idea basically. WDYT? I will try to work that out in
>>> more details. Basically it should be implementable even with the CDI
>>> mechanism already in place with CDI 1.1.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Anatole
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-09-05 16:08 GMT+02:00 Antonio Goncalves <
>>> antonio.goncalves at gmail.com<mailto:antonio.goncalves at gmail.com>>:
>>> One wise man* once said "EJB was a hype specification, we added too many
>>> things to it, it became bloated. The next hype specifications are JAX-RS
>>> and CDI, careful with them"
>>>
>>> Either we get this idea of "parts" right, or CDI will endup being
>>> bloated.
>>>
>>> Antonio
>>>
>>>
>>> *David Blevin
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Antoine Sabot-Durand <
>>> antoine at sabot-durand.net<mailto:antoine at sabot-durand.net>> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> You may have followed the rise and fall of the Java Config JSR (
>>> http://javaeeconfig.blogspot.ch/2014/09/no-java-ee-configuration-for-ee8-dear.html
>>> ).
>>> Anatole in CC was leading this initiative and I proposed him to join us
>>> and explore if some part of his late-JSR could be done in CDI.
>>>
>>> I?m mainly thinking of https://issues.jboss.org/browse/CDI-123 or
>>> related solution. If we achieve to have a majority of specs to integrate
>>> with CDI, our configuration solution would therefore become a configuration
>>> system for all spec based on CDI 2.0.
>>>
>>> Antoine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Antonio Goncalves
>>> Software architect, Java Champion and Pluralsight author
>>>
>>> Web site<http://www.antoniogoncalves.org> | Twitter<
>>> http://twitter.com/agoncal> | LinkedIn<
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/agoncal> | Pluralsight<
>>> http://pluralsight.com/training/Authors/Details/antonio-goncalves> |
>>> Paris JUG<http://www.parisjug.org> | Devoxx France<http://www.devoxx.fr>
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Anatole Tresch
>>> Java Lead Engineer, JSR Spec Lead
>>> Gl?rnischweg 10
>>> CH - 8620 Wetzikon
>>>
>>> Switzerland, Europe Zurich, GMT+1
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>>> --
>>> *Anatole Tresch*
>>> Java Lead Engineer, JSR Spec Lead
>>> Glärnischweg 10
>>> CH - 8620 Wetzikon
>>>
>>> *Switzerland, Europe Zurich, GMT+1*
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Anatole Tresch*
>> Java Lead Engineer, JSR Spec Lead
>> Glärnischweg 10
>> CH - 8620 Wetzikon
>>
>> *Switzerland, Europe Zurich, GMT+1*
>> *Twitter: @atsticks*
>> *Blogs: **http://javaremarkables.blogspot.ch/
>> <http://javaremarkables.blogspot.ch/>*
>>
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>>
>
>
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