[hibernate-dev] NoORM IRC meeting minutes

[Guillaume Smet]

Hi,

No bot today so here are the minutes, carefully copy/pasted manually.

Have a nice day, all!

15:06 < gsmet> so Emmanuel, I suppose you don't have any news on the
Hibernate front?
15:06 < gsmet> #topic Progress Emmanuel
15:06 < emmanuel> No
15:06 < emmanuel> Though I asked on another mailing list the benefit of
15:07 < emmanuel> StackOverflow and removing the forum (or making read only)
15:07 < emmanuel> Spring went that way
15:07 < emmanuel> But that's not a high priority thread
15:07 < gsmet> OK
15:07 < gsmet> #topic Next 2 weeks Emmanuel
15:07 < gsmet> anything planned for the next 2 weeks?
15:09 < emmanuel> If anything, I think I will want to start looking at the
cloud friendly ORM version
15:09 < emmanuel> around connection etc
15:09 < emmanuel> something I had started a few months ago
15:09 < emmanuel> but no guarantee
15:09 < gsmet> OK, nice
15:10 < sannegrinovero> speaking of that, I had some input from a potential
contributor about using ORM in OS
15:10 < sannegrinovero> he promised he'll either blog about it or comment
on your related blog post
15:10 < emmanuel> sweet
15:10 < emmanuel> do you keep track of promises?
15:10 < emmanuel> :)
15:10 < sannegrinovero> yes
15:11 < sannegrinovero> and he has good motivation as he's one of our
candidates ;)
15:11 < alesj> sannegrinovero: still waiting on your email about JDK9 … for
JavaSI … ;-)
15:12 < gsmet> emmanuel: anything to add?
15:12 < sannegrinovero> alesj, sorry I'm back since this morning :) pile of
emails to process today!
15:12 < emmanuel> nope
15:12 < gsmet> #topic Progress Guillaume
15:12 < gsmet> We released a 6.0.2.Final of HV due to a nasty bug
15:13 < gsmet> they already updated GlassFish with this version
15:13 < gsmet> so the first 5 version of GF should contain this version
15:14 < gsmet> on the HV front, I'm mostly reviewing PR and spending a few
half days on it per week
15:14 < gsmet> I started to work more on OGM
15:14 < gsmet> upgraded all the components
15:15 < gsmet> I had a hard time upgrading Neo4j as they changed quite a
lot of things
15:15 < gsmet> also OGM now targets JDK 8
15:15 < gsmet> I also worked on the ORM 5.2 support
15:15 < gsmet> it's a long journey
15:15 < gsmet> I have something working except one JTA issue in Neo4j tests
15:16 < gsmet> I'll ask Davide if he has some idea when he's back
15:16 < gsmet> I pushed a few PRs to ORM
15:16 < gsmet> I have another one in the queue
15:16 < gsmet> and I'm working on trying to reduce significantly the amount
of copied code in OgmSessionImpl
15:17 < gsmet> this is hard due to how we wrap the sessions and the
architecture of ORM session
15:17 < gsmet> I think it's a subject we should discuss at the F2F meeting
15:18 < gsmet> anyway, I still want to try this last experiment and see if
I can come up with something
15:18 < gsmet> if not, I'll push what I have so that we can discuss it
15:18 < gsmet> #topic Next 2 weeks Guillaume
15:18 -!- sfikes [~sfikes at c-76-107-225-165.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined
#hibernate-dev
15:18 < gsmet> so see above ^
15:18 -!- smarlow [~smarlow at redhat/jboss/smarlow] has joined #hibernate-dev
15:19 < gsmet> and I have a few things I want to check on HV
15:19 < gsmet> (an old report of bad performance with Spring)
15:19 < gsmet> I think we should probably start to decide how to reorganize
the team
15:19 < gsmet> depending on our priorities
15:19 < sannegrinovero> +1
15:20 < gsmet> especially if Sanne is going to work on Infinispan 9 support
15:20 < gsmet> ah, last thing
15:20 < gsmet> emmanuel: I did some work to go away from CLA
15:21 < gsmet> Gunnar wanted to check with you if it was also OK for HV?
15:21 < emmanuel> on principle yes
15:21 < gsmet> Steve discussed with the legal team and they were OK with
having a mention in CONTRIBUTING.md
15:21 < emmanuel> plus HV is ASL so it has less constraint I think from
legal
15:22 < emmanuel> but I don't know what approach you guys used and based on
whose template
15:22 < gsmet> well, Steve had the discussion with legal
15:22 < gsmet> so I based my work on his
15:22 < emmanuel> his was based on LGPL
15:22 < emmanuel> you are different
15:22 < emmanuel> but if that's in my email queue, I'll have a look
15:22 < gsmet> see
https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-validator/pull/836/files
15:23 < gsmet> well, the license is different
15:23 < gsmet> but I don't see how it makes a real difference
15:23 < gsmet> (obviously, I changed the license in the template)
15:24 < emmanuel> if it's well if we mandate a DCOa nd sign-off then, I'm
not exactly pleased
15:24 < gsmet> no we don't mandate the sign off
15:24 < gsmet> legal decided against it
15:25 < sannegrinovero> the Search related change (also by gsmet, I merged
already) :

https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-search/commit/e86ca92805a19a2ca7898a12d9fad527e24aca05
15:25 < gsmet> they said CONTRIBUTING.md was enough
15:25 < emmanuel> well the DCO mentions the sign-off
15:25 < emmanuel> ah well it's mentioned tengentially
15:25 < emmanuel> let me ponder that I'll replay async
15:25 < gsmet> yeah not really
15:26 < gsmet> at least not in the one we committed
15:26 < gsmet> OK
15:26 < gsmet> the idea is: we don't care about CLA anymore and we don't
require sign off
15:26 < gsmet> we just include the test in CONTRIBUTING.md
15:26 < gsmet> text*
15:26 < sannegrinovero> ok. BTW the "sign-off" is indeed mentioned in our
copy but it doesn't sound like a requirement.
15:27 < gsmet> that's what they agreed with legal and I don't think the
text of the DCO is an issue
15:27 < gsmet> anyway, just wanted to raise this
15:27 < gsmet> so that we can finally close this subject
15:27 < gsmet> that's all from me
15:27 < gsmet> #topic Progress Sanne
15:28 < sannegrinovero> emmanuel, while pondering about this, get steve's
emails about it to hibernate-dev.
15:28 < sannegrinovero> ok on the Search side of things we've released 5.8
CR1
15:28 < sannegrinovero> and a bunch of maintenance releases to backport
various things..
15:28 < sannegrinovero> mostly driven by user request (yeah!)
15:28 < sannegrinovero> and WF11 / EAP needs
15:29 < sannegrinovero> I've had to work quite a bit in politics regarding
EAP dependencies
15:29 < sannegrinovero> e.g. WF was overriding some versions which wasn't
making us happy
15:29 < sannegrinovero> (not happy ~ doesn't work)
15:30 < sannegrinovero> also we've been collecting some perf metrics of the
new ES integration design
15:30 < sannegrinovero> There's now a lot of data in various spredsheets so
we can reason about the effect of various
                        options
15:31 < sannegrinovero> we'll need to re-org the data and write down some
considerations about it
15:31 < sannegrinovero> the good news is that our backend is rather "light"
on resources now
15:32 < sannegrinovero> I'm in particular happy of the work yoann made in
the bulking across threads
15:32 < sannegrinovero> and my better GSON integration consuming way less
memory
15:32 < sannegrinovero> it's not looking too bad but there's room for
improvement in how we send data to it..
15:33 < sannegrinovero> but at least with the last figures we had I'm more
comfortable about publishing this branch as
                        final and move on.
15:33 < emmanuel> nice
15:33 < emmanuel> should we have a post -mortem describing what went wrong
int he initial design
15:33 < emmanuel> not to make the same mistake again if we can?
15:33 < sannegrinovero> hum well .. "don't make it naive" ? :D
15:33 < yrodiere> sannegrinovero: Btw, should we close (cancel) my latest
PR on the performance topic? Or do you want
                  to have a look later?
15:34 < emmanuel> ok so clearly yrodiere is naive. Got to work on that ;P
15:34 < sannegrinovero> yrodiere, if it's the one on GSON encoding I think
it can wait for post-release? If it's
                        another one I haven't seen it yet :)
15:35 < yrodiere> emmanuel: Not to say I would have made it better (I
wouldn't), but the naive implementation was not
                  mine :)
15:35 < sannegrinovero> I'm open to still make some small improvements
between CR1 and Final but I'd avoid the tricky
                        ones
15:35 < emmanuel> yrodiere: ok
15:35 < emmanuel> To be fair, Gunnar made the v0 had cut corner to prove to
the team that we could do it in less that 5
                  years
15:36 < emmanuel> so that's the price we paid
15:36 < sannegrinovero> yrodiere, +1 ! Not pointing fingers. Just nobody
had thought about the topic at all
15:36 < emmanuel> which is not too bad
15:36 < sannegrinovero> exactly
15:36 < yrodiere> Yes, you can't have it both ways :)
15:36 < sannegrinovero> tech debt is a useful tool when used wisely ;)
15:36 < emmanuel> LBO FTW
15:36 < emmanuel> oh wait
15:36 < sannegrinovero> LBO ?
15:37 < gsmet> hey men, don't be so chatty, I have to copy/paste the
minutes manually today :)
15:37 < sannegrinovero> gsmet, maybe I need to write those techniques after
all :)
15:37 < emmanuel> Leveraged Buy Out
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/leveragedbuyout.asp
15:37 < jbossbot> Title: Leveraged Buyout (LBO)
15:37 < sannegrinovero> do bulking, rather than sending one line at a time
gsmet :)
15:37 < yrodiere> sannegrinovero: About the PRs, there are three of them,
but
                  https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-search/pull/1517
is the only one which is about more than just
                  cosmetics
15:37 < emmanuel> buy a company but with massive amounts of debts
15:37 < jbossbot> git pull req [hibernate-search] (open) Yoann Rodière
HSEARCH-2849 Improve the previously useless
                  content-length hinting when computing Elasticsearch
request hash
                  https://github.com/hibernate/hibernate-search/pull/1517
15:37 < jbossbot> jira [HSEARCH-2849] Improve or remove the currently
useless content-length hinting when computing
                  Elasticsearch request hash [Pull Request Sent
(Unresolved) Task, Major, elasticsearch, Yoann Rodière]
                  https://hibernate.atlassian.net/browse/HSEARCH-2849
15:38 < sannegrinovero> yrodiere, ok we'll see on /Search soon
15:38 < sannegrinovero> so what I'm investing my time on next is open for
debate
15:38 < gsmet> #topic Next 2 weeks Sanne
15:38 < sannegrinovero> I'm assuming I'll still do some minor PR review on
Search but focus the main attention on OGM,
                        esp Infinispan integration
15:40 < sannegrinovero> I was also investigating some regression in the
area ORM/CDI integrations on WF11 which was
                        spotted by our Search QA tests, but as soon as I
figure it out I'll probably move it to Scott's
                        attention
15:40 < gsmet> sannegrinovero: why do you expect it to be so hard?
15:40 < gsmet> (the ISPN upgrade)
15:40 < gsmet> I would have expected it to be mostly a drop in replacement
15:40 < sannegrinovero> because I previously expected it to be a drop in
replacement and tried :)
15:40 < gsmet> OK :)
15:41 < sannegrinovero> I'm not stating it's super -hard, but will need a
couple of days
15:41 < gsmet> just wondering if it's such a good idea you're the only one
understanding this thing
15:41 < sannegrinovero> secondarily, there are several improvements which
we want
15:41 < sannegrinovero> which require ISPN9 so I'll simply keep rolling on
those.
15:42 < gsmet> so wondering if it wouldn't be better for you to mentor
another person from the team
15:42 < sannegrinovero> I think Davide understands it as well now he's been
doing some maintenance on it
15:42 < gsmet> but it's really an open question
15:42 < gsmet> OK
15:42 < sannegrinovero> also there's this consultant from Rome who's
excited about it and wants to help specifically
                        with the OGM/HR integration
15:43 < sannegrinovero> I guess my goal should be to finish what we had
begun so that it's less messy then involve more
                        people
15:43 < gsmet> OK, that would be nice I think
15:43 < sannegrinovero> I could also work on Infinispan/Embedded and get us
the benefits of galderz 's work on
                        Serialization over object pools
15:44 < sannegrinovero> but that's beyond our scope so let's see
15:44 < sannegrinovero> (I mean the big plans we made in the spreadsheet)
15:44 < sannegrinovero> ok?
15:45 < sannegrinovero> I guess that's all for me, we can debate team
organization at the end.
15:45 < gsmet> ok, thanks
15:45 < gsmet> #topic Progress Yoann
15:46 < yrodiere> So... It's been a while
15:46 < yrodiere> Last time I was in an IRC meeting was more than a month
ago I think
15:47 < yrodiere> Since, as Sanne already mentioned, we finished working on
performance improvements in Search, merged
                  them, and released 5.8.0.CR1
15:47 < yrodiere> Also fixed a few bugs and released backports
15:48 < yrodiere> Lately I've helped alesj on his work to integrate
Hibernate Search in Spring Boot
15:48 < yrodiere> And Adriel on his work to integrate Hibernate Search into
Red Hat BRMS/KID
15:48 < yrodiere> But mostly I've been working on a POC for Hibernate
Search 6
15:49 < yrodiere> What I managed to do for now:
15:49 < yrodiere> An engine that is both backend-agnostic (ES/Lucene/...)
and mapper-agnostic (POJO/JSON/...)
15:50 < yrodiere> Obviously, bridges that are also agnostic
15:50 < yrodiere> Bridges 2.0 with user-defined annotations, à la Bean
Validation
15:51 < sannegrinovero> reminds me a think I forgot: had a design meeting
with Gustavo to discuss some details of the
                        JSON support. he's made great progress so we need
to keep being fast as well ;)
15:52 < yrodiere> For now I only implemented a POJO mapper and a stubbed
Elasticsearch backend, and only indexing is
                  supported. So the POC is able to take POJOs and transform
them to Elasticsearch JSON, with
                  @IndexedEmbedded and custom bridges, but nothing more. In
particular, there's no support for search
                  queries
15:52 < gsmet> yeah search queries are so 2000
15:53 < yrodiere> Yeah, well, you have to start somewhere :)
15:53 < gsmet> you started from scratch or you're changing the existing
code?
15:53 < yrodiere> Ah, and I also managed to implement spatial bridges in a
generic way. The particularity of those is
                  that you need annotations on other properties than the
one being bridged to "mark" the latitude and
                  longitude properties
15:53 < yrodiere> from scratch
15:53 < sannegrinovero> great! Remember a "query" might seem trivial but
the Projections on custom fields need probably
 Discuss development of Hibernate family of projects ( logged @
http://is.gd/0oe7PF )
                        to be included in the POC to make sure we nail the
inverted bridge support for individual
                        properties
15:54 < gsmet> yrodiere: about spatial, I was wondering if we shouldn't
change that
15:54 < gsmet> but it would require a specific type
15:54 < yrodiere> The idea was to have a target, decide whether that's what
we want or not, and only then think about
                  how we will make HSearch change
15:55 < gsmet> yup, sounds nice
15:55 < yrodiere> sannegrinovero: Yep, I have that in mind. There's a bit
of complexity around that, especially because
                  currently, projections are a mix between bean properties
and document fields
15:55 < yrodiere> gsmet: Yeah, well... Too late :p
15:56 < emmanuel> yrodiere: so your work looks like
http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com
15:56 < jbossbot> Title: S4 - Super Simple Storage Service
15:56 < yrodiere> emmanuel: Nah, the result is logged, so it's not
write-only, strictly speaking :p
15:56 < sannegrinovero> yrodiere, ok, exactly my concern.
15:57 < sannegrinovero> log4j-as-database :)
15:57 < yrodiere> The git repo is there, by the way:
https://github.com/yrodiere/hibernate-search-6-poc
15:57 < gsmet> yrodiere: was thinking about storing polygons and so on
15:57 < yrodiere> Ah, the POC also introduces some kind of API which could
fix HSEARCH-1800
15:57 < jbossbot> jira [HSEARCH-1800] Offer API to index and query third
party datasources easily [Open (Unresolved)
                  New Feature, Major, Emmanuel Bernard]
https://hibernate.atlassian.net/browse/HSEARCH-1800
15:58 < gsmet> but let's discuss that the day we have a bot :)
15:58 < yrodiere> gsmet: Yep, I renamed @SpatialBridge to @GeoPointBridge,
so that it can become an option later
15:58 < yrodiere> So
15:59 < yrodiere> Next few weeks, well, I'll continue to help alesj and
Adriel, and of course work on the POC.
15:59 < sannegrinovero> this Leandro also opened some strong feature
requests
15:59 < gsmet> is he from RH?
16:00 < sannegrinovero> unless they are disruptive I think we should try
accomodating for them
16:00 < yrodiere> sannegrinovero: Yes, I'm working on one (not very
complex), and I think the other should be closed as
                  invalid
16:00 < sannegrinovero> AFAIK no .. a user giving feedback.
16:00 < gsmet> he also opened an issue on HV about WF 11
16:00 < yrodiere> sannegrinovero: As far as I can see, after my explanation
he agrees with me
16:01 < gsmet> yrodiere: anything to add on the progress front?
16:01 < sannegrinovero> yrodiere, not sure about which issue you're talking
as he opened several, let's discuss that on
                        hipchat later.
16:01 < yrodiere> Also, I may have a look at the JSR-352 support. The only
remaining work is more or less about testing
                  performance. I was thinking about merging it and
publishing it in a 5.9. Do you think it's a good
                  idea?
16:01 < yrodiere> And that's all
16:02 < emmanuel> gsmet: sannegrinovero I looked at the post-CLA world. All
looks good to me. Good riddance!
16:02 < yrodiere> About the 5.9 with JSR-352 (Batch) support, WDYT?
16:02 < sannegrinovero> emmanuel, awesome! thank you both
16:03 < sannegrinovero> emmanuel, does that comment apply to the Apache
projects too?
16:04 < sannegrinovero> yrodiere, yes I'm not against a 5.9 :) we have many
goods coming which shouldn't be blocked by
                        the main 6.0 task
16:04 < emmanuel> yes, it could be made simpler since ASL does imply a CLA
but that would require a round of Richard
                  and at least here we have stuff consistent
16:04 < gsmet> OK, cool
16:04 < gsmet> I'll merge the PRs then
16:05 < sannegrinovero> we'll need to update some minor projects too
16:05 < sannegrinovero> e.g. HCANN and jpql-parser, etc..
16:06 < gsmet> mkay
16:06 < gsmet> I'll check it out
16:06 < sannegrinovero> gsmet, we can split the load: you're in charge but
delegate one project each ;)
16:07 < gsmet> it's easier if I do it
16:07 < sannegrinovero> as you prefer
16:07 < gsmet> I'll do it for projects that are alive
16:07 < sannegrinovero> +1
16:08 < emmanuel> gsmet: I merged the HV one already
16:08 < gsmet> OK, so, do we discuss the team organization today with
Davide missing?
16:08 < gsmet> emmanuel: OK, I also have a commit somewhere to update the
website, will push that after the meeting
16:08 < gsmet> we are already past time
16:09 < emmanuel> gsmet: put on 6.0-next btw
16:09 < sannegrinovero> gsmet, I'm available but see no problem in
postponing that if you all prefer.
16:10 < yrodiere> available too
16:10 < gsmet> I'm also available, just wondering if it's fair to not have
Davide involved
16:10 < sannegrinovero> whatever we decide I think it's clear I need to
resurrect that ISPN9 branch for OGM while
                        monitoring Search progress so I doubt there's
material change this week.
16:10 < gsmet> yes, my thought exactly
16:10 < gsmet> I think we all have one week of work ahead
16:11 < gsmet> so we can discuss it with Davide
16:11 < sannegrinovero> ok let's convene early next week for an ad-hoc
meeting?
16:11 < gsmet> OK, I'll check your agendas and suggest a date
16:11 < sannegrinovero> cool thanks
16:11 < gsmet> emmanuel: do you want to be there?
16:12 < emmanuel> I don't knwo what you guys want to discuss
16:13 < gsmet> mostly who works on what
16:13 < sannegrinovero> ok let's keep emmanuel out of that. We have his
priorities on file and can use that.
16:13 < sannegrinovero> gsmet, emmanuel yrodiere I'd also want to schedule
a dedicated meeting about implications of
                        doing the Search 6.0 API in clean room (e.g. API
artifact, licensing and implications on other
                        projects)
16:14 < emmanuel> ok, got it
16:14 < emmanuel> I can be there if you want
16:14 < emmanuel> from the look of it I won't be the main contributor :)
16:14 < sannegrinovero> emmanuel, we'll have great cofee and cookies :)
16:15 < yrodiere> sannegrinovero: sure, whenever you want
16:15 < gsmet> sannegrinovero: ok
16:15 < gsmet> I think I answered your email a long time ago :)
16:15 < sannegrinovero> gsmet, yes that's the reason.. you raised several
points and my conclusion was a voice call
                        would be eaiser ;)
16:16 < gsmet> OK :)
16:16 < gsmet> I let you organize this one
16:17 < sannegrinovero> sure. ok done here? Need to debug this WF11
deployment problem, would hate to open another last
                        minute blocker ;)
16:17 < gsmet> yup, let's close the meeting
16:17 < gsmet> I'm off for the day copy/pasting the minutes ;)
16:17 < sannegrinovero> lol. Ok thanks all! ttyl
16:18 < yrodiere> Thanks all!