[hibernate-dev] Chat migration - D minus 115 until the death of HipChat

Thu Dec 6 04:40:31 EST 2018

So, I'm using Zulip right now on a daily basis.

I maintain my first impression that it's really not user friendly.

The fact that you are required to create topics for discussions (or find a
suitable topic in a list of a gazillion topics previously created,
obviously without a search engine where you need it - you have a global one
at the top where you can find topics) is a pain. You also need to use
ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter is a new line in your
message. The UI is not very good and I don't see any improvement since the
last time I tested it so I'm wondering if they are investing in it.

We could decide to use it as a dev team as I suppose we would get used to
it, but I seriously don't think it's a good alternative for our users to
occasionally come chat with us.

As for Gitter, I agree with the notification issue, the web client is all
buggy. Haven't tested the desktop client yet.

I must admit that I prefer using Gitter. Probably until I get bitten by the
1-1 history issue :).

>From what I can see, GitLab doesn't invest much in Gitter either so I
wonder if it's gonna be viable in the long term.

I suppose we'll see.

-- 
Guillaume

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:58 AM Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:

> The WildFly team is moving from Slack to Zulip, because Zulip seems to be
> the only solution that is free, provides unlimited history, and allows
> unlimited users even in private rooms (for OSS projects, at least). Gitter
> has all that, except unlimited users, as we are limited to 25 people per
> private room.
>
> You can join them here: https://wildfly.zulipchat.com/
>
> Back to our solution... We are now 71 days away from the decommissioning of
> HipChat. *Is everyone happy with Gitter?* Do you see a strong reason to
> keep looking for another solution?
>
> For my part, I noticed problems with the web client, in particular with
> notifications, which are sub-standard, but with the desktop client
> everything seems to work fine. It's simple, but it does the job.
>
> Yoann Rodière
> Hibernate NoORM Team
> yoann at hibernate.org
>
>
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:
>
> > On top of not being able to add more than 25 people to a private room,
> > there's another limitation of Gitter that Fabio just noticed: the chat
> > history for 1-to-1 conversations is very limited. In our case, we can
> only
> > see 2 days back, and there's no concept of archives like there is in
> rooms.
> >
> > Meanwhile, the WildFly team is giving up on Slack because of the very
> > limited size of history in free plans. They are investigating Zulip,
> > RocketChat and MatterMost in particular. Maybe let's see what they end up
> > choosing and why?
> >
> > Yoann Rodière
> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> > yoann at hibernate.org
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 11:33, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 08:49, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> > Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it might be
> >>> too successful as well
> >>>
> >>> Ok. Well, I guess we'll see. As I mentioned above, I don't think
> forcing
> >>> people to have a GitHub account will be very effective, but I can't
> suggest
> >>> a perfect solution either. Bots answering with a few links
> (documentation,
> >>> etc.) to the first message of each user come to mind, but that could be
> >>> considered rude, so I wouldn't do that unless the traffic becomes
> >>> unmanageable. Other solutions include kicking out "spammers" (but that
> >>> doesn't work if it's many users asking a single question), or making
> the
> >>> -dev rooms invite-only and only checking the user rooms once in a while
> >>> (might work if Gitter sends emails when your are mentioned while
> offline).
> >>> So, yeah, in short: I don't really know.
> >>>
> >>> > More just accountability.  But if some form of login in needed to use
> >>> Gitter, that's enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was "allow
> >>> anonymous", which I wanted to avoid.
> >>>
> >>> Then it should be fine: anonymous access apparently only allows to read
> >>> messages. Login through GitLab, GitHub or Twitter is necessary in
> order to
> >>> start posting new messages.
> >>>
> >>> Yoann Rodière
> >>> Hibernate NoORM Team
> >>> yoann at hibernate.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 19:34, Steve Ebersole <steve at hibernate.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> For me its not so much about "the right kind of people".  More just
> >>>> accountability.  But if some form of login in needed to use Gitter,
> that's
> >>>> enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was "allow anonymous",
> which
> >>>> I wanted to avoid.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:41 AM Sanne Grinovero <sanne at hibernate.org
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 17:27, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > I don't see why we should force people to have a GitHub account,
> >>>>> considering there are other means of logging into Gitter.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ok.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > As to getting the right type of people, I'm not sure it's relevant.
> >>>>> Most people are likely to have one, and those who don't are likely
> to not
> >>>>> have one for political reasons (think free software extremists)
> rather than
> >>>>> because they aren't tech savvy enough: while the "hibernate" naming
> might
> >>>>> confuse users looking for information about grizzly bears, I doubt my
> >>>>> grandmother, my 7-year-old nephew or even my non-software-engineer
> of a
> >>>>> wife would end up on Gitter by mistake.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well since that's obvious, clearly I was referring to a different way
> >>>>> of cathegorizing people joining@ not by age or expertise in
> technology
> >>>>> but in having reasonable expectations and willing to do some research
> >>>>> before bothering us all.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You probably weren't around yet, but Hibernate has had hard times in
> >>>>> which it was "victim of its own success": just too many
> >>>>> kinda-interested people making a ton of basic questions that could be
> >>>>> easily solved otherwise.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some "barriers" we have in place have made it manageable; of course I
> >>>>> can't tell if it's all merit of the barriers of entry or just people
> >>>>> coming in lower volumes with better intentions, but I'm confident
> that
> >>>>> some of the barriers we have have helped to keep some sanity (e.g.
> >>>>> login on #hibernate-dev on IRC requiring an account).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it might be
> >>>>> too successful as well.  But I guess we'll see, or let's use a very
> >>>>> bad chat platform so to keep people from coming :P
> >>>>>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Yoann Rodière
> >>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> >>>>> > yoann at hibernate.org
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 18:02, Sanne Grinovero <sanne at hibernate.org
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 16:02, Steve Ebersole <steve at hibernate.org
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> > What is it a conscious decision to not require a GitHub account
> >>>>> to join these rooms?  I just noticed that is a toggle-option in the
> room's
> >>>>> settings also.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> I don't remember. We created these rooms as an experiment in
> 2014..
> >>>>> >> Yoann created some more rooms recently.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Should we enforce people to have a Github account? I'd like that,
> I
> >>>>> >> think it would better nudge towards getting the right type of
> people
> >>>>> >> to join.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Thanks,
> >>>>> >> Sanne
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> >
> >>>>> >> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM Guillaume Smet <
> >>>>> guillaume.smet at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Sanne Grinovero <
> >>>>> sanne at hibernate.org>
> >>>>> >> >> wrote:
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> > If one wants a lot of features then clearly only Slack is the
> >>>>> way to
> >>>>> >> >> > go. Not saying we should go with Slack, just that we'll need
> >>>>> to be
> >>>>> >> >> > patient and we'll always be short of some features - if
> that's
> >>>>> not
> >>>>> >> >> > acceptable then only Slack will make you happy.
> >>>>> >> >> >
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> TBH, I don't care about fancy features. Gitter is OK for me but
> >>>>> yeah not
> >>>>> >> >> having sound is really annoying.
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> I might miss notifications from time to time.
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> In any case, it will mostly be a problem for you all if you
> ping
> >>>>> me :).
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> > BTW the issue you linked to suggests the native clients don't
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> >> >> > this specific problem.. might want to try that?
> >>>>> >> >> >
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> I prefer to have it in the browser where I do most of my
> >>>>> interactions with
> >>>>> >> >> people.
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> And AFAIK, Yoann wrote they were only packaged as deb (and not
> >>>>> very excited
> >>>>> >> >> about compiling it).
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> BTW, tbh, I'm a bit worried GitLab has only one dev on it if
> >>>>> they want to
> >>>>> >> >> become a player in this area. They certainly have some work to
> >>>>> do to catch
> >>>>> >> >> up with others.
> >>>>> >> >>
> >>>>> >> >> --
> >>>>> >> >> Guillaume
> >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >>>>> >> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >>>>> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >>>>>
> >>>>
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