[hibernate-dev] Chat migration - D minus 115 until the death of HipChat

Thu Dec 6 07:02:12 EST 2018

If it helps, Guillaume, the desktop client made all the difference for me.
And I hated the idea of moving to Gitter based on just the web client.

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:25 AM Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:

> > You also need to use ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter is a
> new line in your message
>
> There's a checkbox to change that, and its value is persisted, so you only
> have to tick it once. It's located just beside the "Send" button, I'm sure
> you saw it :)
> But apart from that, yes, I agree it's not very user-friendly. It's more
> about the user getting used to the tool than the tool being made obvious
> from the start.
>
> I'm also unsure how long Gitter will continue to be maintained, and how
> well it will be. But we're mostly done migrating to Gitter; I don't see
> much activity on HipChat anymore.
>
> Objectively, and regardless of my preferred tool, the main drawback I can
> see about not moving to Zulip (or another tool) now, but only later, is the
> confusion it will potentially create for users: we were on HipChat,
> announced we were moving to Gitter and changed the links on our website,
> and a few months later we move again. That is, I think, something we want
> to avoid.
>
> So the question really is: is Gitter the right tool for us, and do we trust
> it to stay the right tool for us long enough (say, at least a couple of
> years)?
>
> Yoann Rodière
> Hibernate NoORM Team
> yoann at hibernate.org
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:41, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > So, I'm using Zulip right now on a daily basis.
> >
> > I maintain my first impression that it's really not user friendly.
> >
> > The fact that you are required to create topics for discussions (or find
> a
> > suitable topic in a list of a gazillion topics previously created,
> > obviously without a search engine where you need it - you have a global
> one
> > at the top where you can find topics) is a pain. You also need to use
> > ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter is a new line in your
> > message. The UI is not very good and I don't see any improvement since
> the
> > last time I tested it so I'm wondering if they are investing in it.
> >
> > We could decide to use it as a dev team as I suppose we would get used to
> > it, but I seriously don't think it's a good alternative for our users to
> > occasionally come chat with us.
> >
> > As for Gitter, I agree with the notification issue, the web client is all
> > buggy. Haven't tested the desktop client yet.
> >
> > I must admit that I prefer using Gitter. Probably until I get bitten by
> > the 1-1 history issue :).
> >
> > From what I can see, GitLab doesn't invest much in Gitter either so I
> > wonder if it's gonna be viable in the long term.
> >
> > I suppose we'll see.
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:58 AM Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> The WildFly team is moving from Slack to Zulip, because Zulip seems to
> be
> >> the only solution that is free, provides unlimited history, and allows
> >> unlimited users even in private rooms (for OSS projects, at least).
> Gitter
> >> has all that, except unlimited users, as we are limited to 25 people per
> >> private room.
> >>
> >> You can join them here: https://wildfly.zulipchat.com/
> >>
> >> Back to our solution... We are now 71 days away from the decommissioning
> >> of
> >> HipChat. *Is everyone happy with Gitter?* Do you see a strong reason to
> >> keep looking for another solution?
> >>
> >> For my part, I noticed problems with the web client, in particular with
> >> notifications, which are sub-standard, but with the desktop client
> >> everything seems to work fine. It's simple, but it does the job.
> >>
> >> Yoann Rodière
> >> Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> yoann at hibernate.org
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On top of not being able to add more than 25 people to a private room,
> >> > there's another limitation of Gitter that Fabio just noticed: the chat
> >> > history for 1-to-1 conversations is very limited. In our case, we can
> >> only
> >> > see 2 days back, and there's no concept of archives like there is in
> >> rooms.
> >> >
> >> > Meanwhile, the WildFly team is giving up on Slack because of the very
> >> > limited size of history in free plans. They are investigating Zulip,
> >> > RocketChat and MatterMost in particular. Maybe let's see what they end
> >> up
> >> > choosing and why?
> >> >
> >> > Yoann Rodière
> >> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> > yoann at hibernate.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 11:33, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 08:49, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> > Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it might
> be
> >> >>> too successful as well
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Ok. Well, I guess we'll see. As I mentioned above, I don't think
> >> forcing
> >> >>> people to have a GitHub account will be very effective, but I can't
> >> suggest
> >> >>> a perfect solution either. Bots answering with a few links
> >> (documentation,
> >> >>> etc.) to the first message of each user come to mind, but that could
> >> be
> >> >>> considered rude, so I wouldn't do that unless the traffic becomes
> >> >>> unmanageable. Other solutions include kicking out "spammers" (but
> that
> >> >>> doesn't work if it's many users asking a single question), or making
> >> the
> >> >>> -dev rooms invite-only and only checking the user rooms once in a
> >> while
> >> >>> (might work if Gitter sends emails when your are mentioned while
> >> offline).
> >> >>> So, yeah, in short: I don't really know.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> > More just accountability.  But if some form of login in needed to
> >> use
> >> >>> Gitter, that's enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was
> >> "allow
> >> >>> anonymous", which I wanted to avoid.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Then it should be fine: anonymous access apparently only allows to
> >> read
> >> >>> messages. Login through GitLab, GitHub or Twitter is necessary in
> >> order to
> >> >>> start posting new messages.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yoann Rodière
> >> >>> Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> >>> yoann at hibernate.org
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 19:34, Steve Ebersole <steve at hibernate.org>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> For me its not so much about "the right kind of people".  More just
> >> >>>> accountability.  But if some form of login in needed to use Gitter,
> >> that's
> >> >>>> enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was "allow
> anonymous",
> >> which
> >> >>>> I wanted to avoid.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:41 AM Sanne Grinovero <
> >> sanne at hibernate.org>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 17:27, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > I don't see why we should force people to have a GitHub account,
> >> >>>>> considering there are other means of logging into Gitter.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ok.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > As to getting the right type of people, I'm not sure it's
> >> relevant.
> >> >>>>> Most people are likely to have one, and those who don't are likely
> >> to not
> >> >>>>> have one for political reasons (think free software extremists)
> >> rather than
> >> >>>>> because they aren't tech savvy enough: while the "hibernate"
> naming
> >> might
> >> >>>>> confuse users looking for information about grizzly bears, I doubt
> >> my
> >> >>>>> grandmother, my 7-year-old nephew or even my non-software-engineer
> >> of a
> >> >>>>> wife would end up on Gitter by mistake.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Well since that's obvious, clearly I was referring to a different
> >> way
> >> >>>>> of cathegorizing people joining@ not by age or expertise in
> >> technology
> >> >>>>> but in having reasonable expectations and willing to do some
> >> research
> >> >>>>> before bothering us all.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> You probably weren't around yet, but Hibernate has had hard times
> in
> >> >>>>> which it was "victim of its own success": just too many
> >> >>>>> kinda-interested people making a ton of basic questions that could
> >> be
> >> >>>>> easily solved otherwise.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Some "barriers" we have in place have made it manageable; of
> course
> >> I
> >> >>>>> can't tell if it's all merit of the barriers of entry or just
> people
> >> >>>>> coming in lower volumes with better intentions, but I'm confident
> >> that
> >> >>>>> some of the barriers we have have helped to keep some sanity (e.g.
> >> >>>>> login on #hibernate-dev on IRC requiring an account).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it might
> be
> >> >>>>> too successful as well.  But I guess we'll see, or let's use a
> very
> >> >>>>> bad chat platform so to keep people from coming :P
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > Yoann Rodière
> >> >>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> >>>>> > yoann at hibernate.org
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> >
> >> >>>>> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 18:02, Sanne Grinovero <
> >> sanne at hibernate.org>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 16:02, Steve Ebersole <
> >> steve at hibernate.org>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >> >
> >> >>>>> >> > What is it a conscious decision to not require a GitHub
> account
> >> >>>>> to join these rooms?  I just noticed that is a toggle-option in
> the
> >> room's
> >> >>>>> settings also.
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> I don't remember. We created these rooms as an experiment in
> >> 2014..
> >> >>>>> >> Yoann created some more rooms recently.
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> Should we enforce people to have a Github account? I'd like
> >> that, I
> >> >>>>> >> think it would better nudge towards getting the right type of
> >> people
> >> >>>>> >> to join.
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> Thanks,
> >> >>>>> >> Sanne
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >
> >> >>>>> >> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM Guillaume Smet <
> >> >>>>> guillaume.smet at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Sanne Grinovero <
> >> >>>>> sanne at hibernate.org>
> >> >>>>> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> > If one wants a lot of features then clearly only Slack is
> >> the
> >> >>>>> way to
> >> >>>>> >> >> > go. Not saying we should go with Slack, just that we'll
> need
> >> >>>>> to be
> >> >>>>> >> >> > patient and we'll always be short of some features - if
> >> that's
> >> >>>>> not
> >> >>>>> >> >> > acceptable then only Slack will make you happy.
> >> >>>>> >> >> >
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> TBH, I don't care about fancy features. Gitter is OK for me
> >> but
> >> >>>>> yeah not
> >> >>>>> >> >> having sound is really annoying.
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> I might miss notifications from time to time.
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> In any case, it will mostly be a problem for you all if you
> >> ping
> >> >>>>> me :).
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> > BTW the issue you linked to suggests the native clients
> >> don't
> >> >>>>> have
> >> >>>>> >> >> > this specific problem.. might want to try that?
> >> >>>>> >> >> >
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> I prefer to have it in the browser where I do most of my
> >> >>>>> interactions with
> >> >>>>> >> >> people.
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> And AFAIK, Yoann wrote they were only packaged as deb (and
> not
> >> >>>>> very excited
> >> >>>>> >> >> about compiling it).
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> BTW, tbh, I'm a bit worried GitLab has only one dev on it if
> >> >>>>> they want to
> >> >>>>> >> >> become a player in this area. They certainly have some work
> to
> >> >>>>> do to catch
> >> >>>>> >> >> up with others.
> >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> >>>>> >> >> --
> >> >>>>> >> >> Guillaume
> >> >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >> >>>>> >> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >> >>>>> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >
> >
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