[hibernate-dev] Chat migration - D minus 115 until the death of HipChat

Wed Jan 16 07:40:18 EST 2019

Does anyone know whether/how I could export all my existing chat logs
from HipChat? I'd like to keep a copy esp. of all 1:1 chats I had, if
that's possible.

Thanks for any hints,

--Gunnar

Am Do., 6. Dez. 2018 um 17:03 Uhr schrieb Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>:
>
> > Hey wait a second :) You invited us to try Gitter. That's fine but we
> > never decided we're migrating to Gitter.
>
> Sure. What I meant was that we are *de facto* done migrating to gitter. Not
> that we meant it, but almost everyone is there already and almost no one is
> on HipChat.
>
> I wouldn't expect important matters to be discussed on Gitter, but then
> again I seem to remember someone (who was that? ;) ) telling me to use the
> mailing list, and not HipChat, for important matters. So, you should be
> fine.
>
> That being said, even if the decision to migrate was not made, we will have
> to make it at some point. So if you want something else, I'd be happy to
> hear about that :)
>
> Yoann Rodière
> Hibernate NoORM Team
> yoann at hibernate.org
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 16:16, Steve Ebersole <steve at hibernate.org> wrote:
>
> > I am never on HipChat at this point.  So don't expect any important
> > matters to be discussed there ;)
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:08 AM Sanne Grinovero <sanne at hibernate.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:25, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > You also need to use ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter
> >> is a
> >> > new line in your message
> >> >
> >> > There's a checkbox to change that, and its value is persisted, so you
> >> only
> >> > have to tick it once. It's located just beside the "Send" button, I'm
> >> sure
> >> > you saw it :)
> >> > But apart from that, yes, I agree it's not very user-friendly. It's more
> >> > about the user getting used to the tool than the tool being made obvious
> >> > from the start.
> >> >
> >> > I'm also unsure how long Gitter will continue to be maintained, and how
> >> > well it will be. But we're mostly done migrating to Gitter; I don't see
> >> > much activity on HipChat anymore.
> >>
> >> Hey wait a second :) You invited us to try Gitter. That's fine but we
> >> never decided we're migrating to Gitter.
> >>
> >> I'm certainly not on Gitter regularly nor right now, so I'm expecting
> >> any important matter to be discussed on mailing lists or HipChat.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Objectively, and regardless of my preferred tool, the main drawback I
> >> can
> >> > see about not moving to Zulip (or another tool) now, but only later, is
> >> the
> >> > confusion it will potentially create for users: we were on HipChat,
> >> > announced we were moving to Gitter and changed the links on our website,
> >> > and a few months later we move again. That is, I think, something we
> >> want
> >> > to avoid.
> >> >
> >> > So the question really is: is Gitter the right tool for us, and do we
> >> trust
> >> > it to stay the right tool for us long enough (say, at least a couple of
> >> > years)?
> >> >
> >> > Yoann Rodière
> >> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> > yoann at hibernate.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:41, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > So, I'm using Zulip right now on a daily basis.
> >> > >
> >> > > I maintain my first impression that it's really not user friendly.
> >> > >
> >> > > The fact that you are required to create topics for discussions (or
> >> find a
> >> > > suitable topic in a list of a gazillion topics previously created,
> >> > > obviously without a search engine where you need it - you have a
> >> global one
> >> > > at the top where you can find topics) is a pain. You also need to use
> >> > > ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter is a new line in your
> >> > > message. The UI is not very good and I don't see any improvement
> >> since the
> >> > > last time I tested it so I'm wondering if they are investing in it.
> >> > >
> >> > > We could decide to use it as a dev team as I suppose we would get
> >> used to
> >> > > it, but I seriously don't think it's a good alternative for our users
> >> to
> >> > > occasionally come chat with us.
> >> > >
> >> > > As for Gitter, I agree with the notification issue, the web client is
> >> all
> >> > > buggy. Haven't tested the desktop client yet.
> >> > >
> >> > > I must admit that I prefer using Gitter. Probably until I get bitten
> >> by
> >> > > the 1-1 history issue :).
> >> > >
> >> > > From what I can see, GitLab doesn't invest much in Gitter either so I
> >> > > wonder if it's gonna be viable in the long term.
> >> > >
> >> > > I suppose we'll see.
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Guillaume
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:58 AM Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> The WildFly team is moving from Slack to Zulip, because Zulip seems
> >> to be
> >> > >> the only solution that is free, provides unlimited history, and
> >> allows
> >> > >> unlimited users even in private rooms (for OSS projects, at least).
> >> Gitter
> >> > >> has all that, except unlimited users, as we are limited to 25 people
> >> per
> >> > >> private room.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> You can join them here: https://wildfly.zulipchat.com/
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Back to our solution... We are now 71 days away from the
> >> decommissioning
> >> > >> of
> >> > >> HipChat. *Is everyone happy with Gitter?* Do you see a strong reason
> >> to
> >> > >> keep looking for another solution?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> For my part, I noticed problems with the web client, in particular
> >> with
> >> > >> notifications, which are sub-standard, but with the desktop client
> >> > >> everything seems to work fine. It's simple, but it does the job.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Yoann Rodière
> >> > >> Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> > >> yoann at hibernate.org
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > On top of not being able to add more than 25 people to a private
> >> room,
> >> > >> > there's another limitation of Gitter that Fabio just noticed: the
> >> chat
> >> > >> > history for 1-to-1 conversations is very limited. In our case, we
> >> can
> >> > >> only
> >> > >> > see 2 days back, and there's no concept of archives like there is
> >> in
> >> > >> rooms.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Meanwhile, the WildFly team is giving up on Slack because of the
> >> very
> >> > >> > limited size of history in free plans. They are investigating
> >> Zulip,
> >> > >> > RocketChat and MatterMost in particular. Maybe let's see what they
> >> end
> >> > >> up
> >> > >> > choosing and why?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Yoann Rodière
> >> > >> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> > >> > yoann at hibernate.org
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 11:33, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 08:49, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>> > Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it
> >> might be
> >> > >> >>> too successful as well
> >> > >> >>>
> >> > >> >>> Ok. Well, I guess we'll see. As I mentioned above, I don't think
> >> > >> forcing
> >> > >> >>> people to have a GitHub account will be very effective, but I
> >> can't
> >> > >> suggest
> >> > >> >>> a perfect solution either. Bots answering with a few links
> >> > >> (documentation,
> >> > >> >>> etc.) to the first message of each user come to mind, but that
> >> could
> >> > >> be
> >> > >> >>> considered rude, so I wouldn't do that unless the traffic becomes
> >> > >> >>> unmanageable. Other solutions include kicking out "spammers"
> >> (but that
> >> > >> >>> doesn't work if it's many users asking a single question), or
> >> making
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> >>> -dev rooms invite-only and only checking the user rooms once in a
> >> > >> while
> >> > >> >>> (might work if Gitter sends emails when your are mentioned while
> >> > >> offline).
> >> > >> >>> So, yeah, in short: I don't really know.
> >> > >> >>>
> >> > >> >>> > More just accountability.  But if some form of login in needed
> >> to
> >> > >> use
> >> > >> >>> Gitter, that's enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was
> >> > >> "allow
> >> > >> >>> anonymous", which I wanted to avoid.
> >> > >> >>>
> >> > >> >>> Then it should be fine: anonymous access apparently only allows
> >> to
> >> > >> read
> >> > >> >>> messages. Login through GitLab, GitHub or Twitter is necessary in
> >> > >> order to
> >> > >> >>> start posting new messages.
> >> > >> >>>
> >> > >> >>> Yoann Rodière
> >> > >> >>> Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> > >> >>> yoann at hibernate.org
> >> > >> >>>
> >> > >> >>>
> >> > >> >>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 19:34, Steve Ebersole <
> >> steve at hibernate.org>
> >> > >> >>> wrote:
> >> > >> >>>
> >> > >> >>>> For me its not so much about "the right kind of people".  More
> >> just
> >> > >> >>>> accountability.  But if some form of login in needed to use
> >> Gitter,
> >> > >> that's
> >> > >> >>>> enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was "allow
> >> anonymous",
> >> > >> which
> >> > >> >>>> I wanted to avoid.
> >> > >> >>>>
> >> > >> >>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:41 AM Sanne Grinovero <
> >> > >> sanne at hibernate.org>
> >> > >> >>>> wrote:
> >> > >> >>>>
> >> > >> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 17:27, Yoann Rodiere <
> >> yoann at hibernate.org>
> >> > >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> > >> >>>>> >
> >> > >> >>>>> > I don't see why we should force people to have a GitHub
> >> account,
> >> > >> >>>>> considering there are other means of logging into Gitter.
> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> > >> >>>>> Ok.
> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> > >> >>>>> >
> >> > >> >>>>> > As to getting the right type of people, I'm not sure it's
> >> > >> relevant.
> >> > >> >>>>> Most people are likely to have one, and those who don't are
> >> likely
> >> > >> to not
> >> > >> >>>>> have one for political reasons (think free software extremists)
> >> > >> rather than
> >> > >> >>>>> because they aren't tech savvy enough: while the "hibernate"
> >> naming
> >> > >> might
> >> > >> >>>>> confuse users looking for information about grizzly bears, I
> >> doubt
> >> > >> my
> >> > >> >>>>> grandmother, my 7-year-old nephew or even my
> >> non-software-engineer
> >> > >> of a
> >> > >> >>>>> wife would end up on Gitter by mistake.
> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> > >> >>>>> Well since that's obvious, clearly I was referring to a
> >> different
> >> > >> way
> >> > >> >>>>> of cathegorizing people joining@ not by age or expertise in
> >> > >> technology
> >> > >> >>>>> but in having reasonable expectations and willing to do some
> >> > >> research
> >> > >> >>>>> before bothering us all.
> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> > >> >>>>> You probably weren't around yet, but Hibernate has had hard
> >> times in
> >> > >> >>>>> which it was "victim of its own success": just too many
> >> > >> >>>>> kinda-interested people making a ton of basic questions that
> >> could
> >> > >> be
> >> > >> >>>>> easily solved otherwise.
> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> > >> >>>>> Some "barriers" we have in place have made it manageable; of
> >> course
> >> > >> I
> >> > >> >>>>> can't tell if it's all merit of the barriers of entry or just
> >> people
> >> > >> >>>>> coming in lower volumes with better intentions, but I'm
> >> confident
> >> > >> that
> >> > >> >>>>> some of the barriers we have have helped to keep some sanity
> >> (e.g.
> >> > >> >>>>> login on #hibernate-dev on IRC requiring an account).
> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> > >> >>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it
> >> might be
> >> > >> >>>>> too successful as well.  But I guess we'll see, or let's use a
> >> very
> >> > >> >>>>> bad chat platform so to keep people from coming :P
> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> > >> >>>>> >
> >> > >> >>>>> >
> >> > >> >>>>> > Yoann Rodière
> >> > >> >>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> >> > >> >>>>> > yoann at hibernate.org
> >> > >> >>>>> >
> >> > >> >>>>> >
> >> > >> >>>>> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 18:02, Sanne Grinovero <
> >> > >> sanne at hibernate.org>
> >> > >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> > >> >>>>> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 16:02, Steve Ebersole <
> >> > >> steve at hibernate.org>
> >> > >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >
> >> > >> >>>>> >> > What is it a conscious decision to not require a GitHub
> >> account
> >> > >> >>>>> to join these rooms?  I just noticed that is a toggle-option
> >> in the
> >> > >> room's
> >> > >> >>>>> settings also.
> >> > >> >>>>> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> I don't remember. We created these rooms as an experiment in
> >> > >> 2014..
> >> > >> >>>>> >> Yoann created some more rooms recently.
> >> > >> >>>>> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> Should we enforce people to have a Github account? I'd like
> >> > >> that, I
> >> > >> >>>>> >> think it would better nudge towards getting the right type
> >> of
> >> > >> people
> >> > >> >>>>> >> to join.
> >> > >> >>>>> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> Thanks,
> >> > >> >>>>> >> Sanne
> >> > >> >>>>> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >
> >> > >> >>>>> >> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM Guillaume Smet <
> >> > >> >>>>> guillaume.smet at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Sanne Grinovero <
> >> > >> >>>>> sanne at hibernate.org>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> wrote:
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> > If one wants a lot of features then clearly only Slack
> >> is
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> >>>>> way to
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> > go. Not saying we should go with Slack, just that
> >> we'll need
> >> > >> >>>>> to be
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> > patient and we'll always be short of some features - if
> >> > >> that's
> >> > >> >>>>> not
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> > acceptable then only Slack will make you happy.
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> >
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> TBH, I don't care about fancy features. Gitter is OK for
> >> me
> >> > >> but
> >> > >> >>>>> yeah not
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> having sound is really annoying.
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> I might miss notifications from time to time.
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> In any case, it will mostly be a problem for you all if
> >> you
> >> > >> ping
> >> > >> >>>>> me :).
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> > BTW the issue you linked to suggests the native clients
> >> > >> don't
> >> > >> >>>>> have
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> > this specific problem.. might want to try that?
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> >
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> I prefer to have it in the browser where I do most of my
> >> > >> >>>>> interactions with
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> people.
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> And AFAIK, Yoann wrote they were only packaged as deb
> >> (and not
> >> > >> >>>>> very excited
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> about compiling it).
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> BTW, tbh, I'm a bit worried GitLab has only one dev on
> >> it if
> >> > >> >>>>> they want to
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> become a player in this area. They certainly have some
> >> work to
> >> > >> >>>>> do to catch
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> up with others.
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> --
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> Guillaume
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >> > >> >>>>> >> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >> > >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >> > >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> > >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >> > >> >>>>> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >> > >> >>>>>
> >> > >> >>>>
> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> > >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >> > >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> > hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> >
> >
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