[jboss-as7-dev] manual way to do logging?

[Jason T. Greene]

On 6/7/12 4:55 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>
>
> On 6/7/12 5:06 PM, Jason T. Greene wrote:
>> On 6/7/12 4:00 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>> On 6/7/12 4:39 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>>>> Yup, pretty much a behemoth.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see it, man. The tooling is lightweight and the result has
>>>> proven to be fast at runtime *and* very nice to use and convenient at
>>>> development time. We evaluated *all* the requirements - not just the
>>>> ones you just thought of now - and came up with a solution that works
>>>> well for everyone (except for you). You need to let it go.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The fact that you can't accommodate such a simple request (and that it
>>> doesn't exist already) proves what a behemoth it is. And I didn't
>>> think of requirements *just now*. If I had known 2 years ago I would be
>>> required to use such a behemoth, I would have been just as much of an
>>> asshole then as I'm being right now. I know if Tim was still around
>>> he'd shit all over this as well.
>>> And finally, I'll let it go...write to the very bottom of my work-queue.
>>>
>>
>> No it's amazing you can't answer a simple question. You're just running
>> around with a hammer expecting everything to be a nail.
>>
>
> What simple question? Thought I did multiple times?

Why do you need an abstraction over an abstraction? That's the question.

>
> To answer Andy's questions: Resteasy has just as many non-JBoss AS users
> as JBoss AS users (to answer Andy's question), but, I don't see what
> making money has to do with whether or not I use JBoss Logging or how I
> would prefer to consume it.

JBoss Logging works for multiple backends as I mentioned earlier, it IS 
an abstraction. It does the same things that your project specific 
abstraction does, but it also address TAG-2, perf and i8ln needs. So if 
you want jboss logging to do those pieces, then your abstraction becomes 
duplication.

>
> Logging is one of the few fundamental external dependencies I have in my
> project that I want to isolate within a simple level of indirection with
> simple project specific interfaces.

But why? What is the tangible benefit to this indirection. It's amazing 
you call us over-engineers when AFICT there is not a single use case to 
back up the need for it.

> Add to that the number of things I
> have to do just to log something with JBoss Logging (X interfaces, Y
> annotated methods, generated code, extra maven plugin, hard external
> dependency).

Ok so you don't like it, use something else. You reject this option 
though because basically you are saying "I dont want to solve these 
problems. YOU solve them for me. AND you better do it the way I want AND 
I don't give a shit about what other people want".
>
> You can argue all you want that my complaints are meaningless, but I
> completely disagree. You can say that I'm running around with a hammer
> expecting everything to be a nail, but from my perspective, you're
> telling me I need a limo driver to drive me down to my mailbox just to
> pick up my mail.

Not at all. Use the best tool for the job. Ultimately I really couldn't 
care less what you do. Your feedback is completely useless though, 
because there is nothing we can do with it. What you fail to understand 
is that a massive amount of analysis, research, feedback gathering, 
examination of other solutions, past experience etc went into this. We 
aren't going to say "screw everyone else Bill doesn't like it". If you 
actually want something to change, you have to do a little work and 
offer a proposal that doesn't sacrifice what we have and still meets the 
requirements.
>
> David was right, I should have let this go from the beginning when I
> learned there was no manual API and just dropped this jira indefinitely
> to the bottom of my queue and avoided aggravating by myself and you guys.

Well all JBoss projects are required to conform to TAG-2. Localization 
and error codes are part of our EAP requirements. You don't have to use 
jboss logging if you dont want to, but you still have to solve the 
problem at hand.


> P.S. I hope we can have a few beers at JUDCon/JBossWorld and *NOT* talk
> about this.
>

I'm in :)

-- 
Jason T. Greene
JBoss AS Lead / EAP Platform Architect
JBoss, a division of Red Hat