<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"><base href="x-msg://943/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>The requirement does seem to come up from business users who don't understand what's going on inside a rules engine. For instance, if I create a trade request for account 15, then should I be logging that the "Account 188 is permitted to trade USD" rule (and 100 other similar rules) didn't fire and that it was because the request wasn't for account 188? Once the knowledge base reaches any kind of realistic size, this kind of auditing becomes meaningless. </div><div><br></div><div>To be honest, I rather thought that this was the role of working memory event listeners. Just create a listener to the facts your rule is interested in and you can log the values of the properties your rule looks at over time, and you can log which rules fired. If a rule does't fire, then you can see the state of all the facts in the working memory at that time.</div><div><br></div><div>It's usually worth going back to basics and challenging the 'users' to define exactly what they're looking for in an audit, and work out the most appropriate way to achieve that.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On 30 Jan 2013, at 15:22, "Cotton, Ben" <<a href="mailto:Ben.Cotton@morganstanley.com">Ben.Cotton@morganstanley.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in; "><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>Ø<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span>I can't think of a way to accomplish this without severely impacting performance as I think you'd essentially end up evaluating all of your rules with a secondary algorithm<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Agreed. Such a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">“when do rules fail to fire?” accounting capability should not be a burden to the Drools runtime. But what about a .DRL “enrichment “ tool that generates explicit accounting .DRL code? Leaving the run-time unburdened, but liberating the .DRL author from all the key-stroke labor?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in; "><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>Ø<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span>However, I only claim to know that I know very little, so grain of salt<span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I don’t even claim to know very little! (But do claim to be excited to “do the work” necessary to learn).<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in; "><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:rules-<a href="mailto:users-bounces@lists.jboss.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Jeremy Ary<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:57 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Rules Users List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [rules-users] Non short circuit ANDing<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">This request turns up a lot. If you dig deeper into the Rete algorithm and examine how it works, you'll find that the node relations and redundancy elimination greatly abstracts away from what we think of as the LHS of a rule. In the node network, it's no longer a set of conditions grouped together for each rule that are checked for true/false collectively. I can't think of a way to accomplish this without severely impacting performance as I think you'd essentially end up evaluating all of your rules with a secondary algorithm. However, I only claim to know that I know very little, so grain of salt.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cotton, Ben <<a href="mailto:Ben.Cotton@morganstanley.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">Ben.Cotton@morganstanley.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><div><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> you'll have to evaluate all relevant conditions individually and keep track of the positives<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Would it be reasonable to suggest that the Drools team provide the user community with some tool, API, or other framework construct that might assist us when we are faced with this exact task?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">I mean, yes, what you suggest here works (and it works perfectly). But, for such an important and common user concern, we currently face a lot of "Drools .DRL keystroke labor" to get us completely where we need to be wrt to coding this tactic completely.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Does your Intellifest white paper (today is the day? HOORAY!) comment at all on strategies to achieve this pattern in .DRL code? It would be way cool if the framework itself liberated us with a “just add water and out comes the .DRL code you want” capability. Such a capability would deliver to users a full answer wrt to our “when do rules fail to fire?” accounting needs.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Admittedly, I don’t know of a best way to proceed wrt to potentially providing that capability. But I do know it would be nice.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">As always, thank you very much for this forum’s superb support.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">-----Original Message-----<br>From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; ">rules-users-bounces@lists.jboss.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Laun<br>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:07 PM<br>To: Rules Users List<br>Subject: Re: [rules-users] Non short circuit ANDing<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">[Groundhog Day]<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">If you need to know all the reasons why a rule doesn't fire you'll have to evaluate all relevant conditions individually and keep track of the positives. (See a very recent thread on this list.)<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">-W<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On 29/01/2013, mp <<a href="mailto:meitreyi.panchmia@morganstanley.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none; ">meitreyi.panchmia@morganstanley.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> I need to record the results of each of the conditions as a side<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> effect in a list. But in case condition1 is false, condition2 would<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> not be evaluated.<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> This would prevent me from knowing whether or not condition2 was<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> true/false.<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> 5.8.3.3.12. Operator precedence at<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://docs.jboss.org/drools/release/5.2.0.Final/drools-expert-docs/ht" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none; ">http://docs.jboss.org/drools/release/5.2.0.Final/drools-expert-docs/ht</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> ml/ch05.html#d0e3962 lists & as an operator. But it somehow doesn't<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> work.<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> --<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> View this message in context:<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://drools.46999.n3.nabble.com/Non-short-circuit-ANDing-tp4021928p4" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none; ">http://drools.46999.n3.nabble.com/Non-short-circuit-ANDing-tp4021928p4</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> 021931.html Sent from the Drools: User forum mailing list archive at<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> <a href="http://Nabble.com">Nabble.com</a>.<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> rules-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none; ">rules-users@lists.jboss.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none; ">https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> <o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">rules-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><a href="mailto:rules-users@lists.jboss.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none; ">rules-users@lists.jboss.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><a href="https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style="color: windowtext; text-decoration: none; ">https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/rules-users</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: gray; ">NOTICE: Morgan Stanley is not acting as a municipal advisor and the opinions or views contained herein are not intended to be, and do not constitute, advice within the meaning of Section 975 of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. 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