[seam-dev] Let me know what you need for a first stab at the PDF/Mail port from Seam 2

[Pete Muir]

On 24 May 2010, at 16:47, Lincoln Baxter, III wrote:

> If what I'm hearing is correct, people aren't so much concerned with using JSF as a templating language, but they are concerned with having "some kind" of templating, and the ability to access data from the current request.

So far I've heard one person say this. I've heard 10-100s say they really like using JSF.

> 
> If that's the case, then it would be incredibly easy to plug in Velocity or another templating system and still provide this functionality. Much easier I believe, in fact, than sledgehammering JSF into a non-servlet-like invocation environment.
> 
> I personally think we should start with a different templating system (since Seam is supposed to be view-layer agnostic anyway.) But I also think that having parallel prototyping going on is a good thing, we can use everyone's combined experiences with the prototypes to come up with a truly decoupled and user-centric system.

Right now, JSF is the key thing to get implemented.

> 
> My big question is... JSF templating is nice, but... what do people truly need?
> 
> Thoughts?
> --Lincoln
> 
> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Pete Muir <pmuir at redhat.com> wrote:
> Nikolay,
> 
> I think it would help people understand your proposal better if you gave an example of your proposed syntax using another templating engine. Perhaps take one of the example emails from Seam2 and rewrite it...
> 
> On 24 May 2010, at 05:01, Nikolay Elenkov wrote:
> 
> > On 2010/05/24 12:46, Gavin King wrote:
> >> On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Nikolay Elenkov <nick at sarion.co.jp> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I don't know how much better JSF2 is at this, but is it really a good idea to
> >>> use JSF for the mail module? Wouldn't it be better to use a real templating
> >>> engine (like Velocity) and not depend on JSF?
> >>
> >> Huh?! What on earth does velocity have that makes it a "real"
> >> templating engine that facelets does not have? I have used both, and I
> >> found velocity far, far poorer in both syntax and semantics.
> >
> > OK, bad wording on my part. The point was not be dependent on JSF. I am not
> > saying that Velocity is better. But it does allow you to have template that
> > are not XML files.
> >
> >>
> >>> Plus it would be easier
> >>> to edit templates if they are not xhtml files, but simple text files.
> >>
> >> Why? Cos XML files are not text files? Cos #foo #end is easier to edit
> >> than <foo></end>? I don't see how what you just wrote can possibly be
> >> true.
> >
> > Yes, it is. Especially if you are not a developer. You can just tell people:
> > 'don't touch this things starting with #, otherwise just edit in notepad'.
> >
> >>
> >>> The usual
> >>> use case for mail templating is to provide files your users can edit if they
> >>> want to customize how email looks like. And you can't really expect them to
> >>> understand xhtml.
> >>
> >> They are XML files. I can't imagine a Java developer who doesn't know
> >> XML. I do know several Java developers who find velocity syntax
> >> nausea-inducing. I'm one of them.
> >>
> >
> > Again, this is not about pro-Velocity, anit-Faceltes. The people that would have
> > to edit templates are *users*, not *Java developers*. If you have to call up
> > your developers just to change the email template, you have failed at usability.
> >
> >> Please try actually reading the Seam mail documentation:
> >>
> >> http://docs.jboss.com/seam/1.1.5.GA/reference/en/html/mail.html
> >
> > I have. I've also been thorough the source, tried to use it and then gave up.
> >
> >> I don't see how most of the functionality could be achieved in
> >> velocity, eg. <m:from>, <m:to>, <m:subject>, <m:header>.
> >>
> >
> > s/velocity/any templating engine you might like/g. I am repeating myself here,
> > but you cannot reallisticaly expect users to mess around with <m:header> and not
> > break the system.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > seam-dev at lists.jboss.org
> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/seam-dev
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Lincoln Baxter, III
> http://ocpsoft.com
> http://scrumshark.com
> "Keep it Simple"