[security-dev] DeltaSpike, IDM, Authentication and Authorization

Fri Jul 27 12:42:12 EDT 2012

Responding to Anil and Jay's points jointly.

On 27 Jul 2012, at 17:02, Jay Balunas wrote:

> 
> On Jul 27, 2012, at 11:56 AM, Anil Saldhana wrote:
> 
>> On 07/27/2012 10:53 AM, Jay Balunas wrote:
>>> Note: I'm not asking you [Pete] to have all of these answers.  I just wanted to bring them up for discussion, and clarification.
>>> 
>>> How will PicketLink IDM interact with or integrate with DeltaSpike security api/spi?
>> As Pete said,  we are going to inject PL IDM entry point into DS 
>> security code. Then DS will be able to make the interactions.
> 
> ok, so from an application developer point of view they are still just using the DS security API (for the most part).  

They use DS security API for both authentication and authorization. When they need to do IDM operations (i.e. CRUD the user), they use a PicketLink IDM API.

We would recommend that they encapsulate any READ operations in their own application I think.

> The IDM integration would be "swappable" then, or could be added in later in app dev cycle.

Yes, the key here is that IDM operations impact very very small amounts of application code, especially if you encapsulate any read operations.

> 
>>> 
>>> Will users of DeltaSpike security somehow configure PicketLink-IDM to manage the applications users?  Or would it literally be separate i.e. an app uses DS APIs, and separately sets up IDM with PL?
>> IMO IDM configuration/setup is outside of DS interaction. In my view, it 
>> is done by administrators using any of the consoles with the identity 
>> store - database brower,  ldap browser,  ldif loads, db import etc

Agree with Anil.

> This would still be Application based, or are we jumping to container IDM?  I could see the need/want for both.

We're probably mixing what IDM means here.

The PicketLink IDM project is a set of connectors and APIs allowing an application to load info about identity, and manage identity. It connects to an identity provider, such as LDAP, JPA, ActiveDirectory etc.

We could connect to a container IDM, but I'm not sure of the use cases here.

> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Would there be a UI for this, even if it's just a default/basic one?  If so where would it exist?  Would the PicketLink IDM provide it as an example?
>> If there is a console, we will probably have it as part of PL. The 
>> projects such as GateIn can have their own consoles interacting with the 
>> IDM SPI/API.
> 
> Makes sense to me.
> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> -Jay
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jul 27, 2012, at 10:20 AM, Pete Muir wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>> 
>>>>> From: Pete Muir <pmuir at redhat.com>
>>>>> Subject: DeltaSpike, IDM, Authentication and Authorization
>>>>> Date: 27 July 2012 15:17:42 GMT+01:00
>>>>> To: security-dev at lists.jboss.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> Until recently, it looked like Apache DeltaSpike would define an IDM API, but now it looks like most people are in agreement that DeltaSpike should not cover IDM.
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://apache-deltaspike-incubator-discussions.2316169.n4.nabble.com/IDM-impl-feedback-td4653444.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> It would still provide an API and SPI for authentication and authorization, as defined in http://incubator.apache.org/deltaspike/security.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does it matter that DeltaSpike won't do IDM?
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> The big reason for us to do things in DeltaSpike, is to give our users a portable way to write applications. As DeltaSpike is a collaborative project between individuals and companies, there is lots of effort put into ensuring portability, and provides a good vendor neutral location to do that. If we consider where portability matters:
>>>>> 
>>>>> * in application code, typically measured by the number of classes, views etc. in a typical application that must be changed to move between frameworks/libraries/runtimes
>>>>> * in configuration, typically measured by number of files that must be altered to move between frameworks/libraries/runtimes
>>>>> 
>>>>> Typically the number of classes is much greater than the number of configuration files.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We can use this to "measure" how much portability matters for a given topic, by looking at the number of files that must be changed to move between frameworks/libraries/runtimes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Taking our security topics:
>>>>> 
>>>>> * Authentication: typically impacts a low number of classes and views. Some configuration required. Portability doesn't matter too much
>>>>> * Authorization: typically impacts most classes and views. Portability is critical.
>>>>> * Identity Management: typically impacts very a very few classes, and some configuration. Perhaps the only real impact on code is accessing user information for display (e.g. the classic "Welcome Pete"). This can easily be encapsulated by a single application class, and is perhaps a pattern we should recommend
>>>>> 
>>>>> Therefore, we can see that whilst portability in IDM would be nice, it's not critical.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do we (JBoss) need IDM? Is there a demand for IDM in the community?
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> I believe the short answer, and one we are all agreed on, is yes and yes :-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> How do we move forward?
>>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> The proposal is that we rehouse the IDM work done by Shane so far in PicketLink IDM [1]. This would consist of:
>>>>> 
>>>>> * An IDM API
>>>>> * An IDM SPI (to allow IDM providers to be written)
>>>>> * An IDM impl (which loads the relevant provider and delegates calls to it)
>>>>> * A set of providers for the SPI such as JPA, LDAP etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Both of these would be plain Java SE implementations, with minimal dependencies to allow maximum reuse by other JBoss projects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Furthermore, we would provide PicketLink CDI, which would provide an implementation of the authorization and authentication provider SPIs in DeltaSpike, that use the IDM backend. The module would also contain authorization providers for the various authorization frameworks PicketLink supports, as well provide authentication API implementations as needed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> When will this be ready?
>>>>> --------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'll let Shane chime in here, but I hope we can get something out fast, as we have a lot of code today.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pete
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