[jboss-dev] My logging ultimatum

Wed Dec 12 09:42:41 EST 2007

On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 08:27 -0600, David M. Lloyd wrote:
> Well... honestly I don't know which bugs he's referring to.  

Here's one only fixed in Java7:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6487638

Or this memory leak:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6274920
known about since 2003
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4811930

Here's one of our workaround's so it doesn't stop
logging when you press ctrl-c
http://jira.jboss.com/jira/browse/JBAS-2087

etc.

> But
> providing a custom LogManager basically lets you provide a complete
> replacement implementation for the Logger class if you want, so it
> seems likely.
> 
> - DML
> 
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:19:09 +0100
> Sacha Labourey <sacha.labourey at jboss.com> wrote:
> 
> > are you sure it is possible to provide an implementation of JUL that 
> > work around the bugs mentioned by Adrian?
> > 
> > On 12/12/2007 03:04 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
> > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:31:52 +0100
> > > Adrian Brock <abrock at redhat.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > >> Why do we keep having this thread over and over again
> > >> with ever new developer?
> > > 
> > > Because you're wrong? ;-)  J/K, but read on.
> > > 
> > >> 1) Use the jboss logger
> > >>
> > >> JBoss has a very simple wrapper, as Jason and Scott explained.
> > > 
> > > Great.  Now my project requires the jboss wrapper.  But my project's
> > > two dependencies require slf4j and log4j, making three different JARs
> > > in total, just for logging. Problem solved!
> > > 
> > >> The logic is
> > >> if (system property set)
> > >>    use implementation of system property
> > >> else if (log4j in classpath)
> > >>    use log4j
> > >> else
> > >>    don't log
> > >>
> > >> Advantages:
> > >> * You can choose log4j, jdk logging or implement a wrapper
> > >> to your own logging framework
> > > 
> > > This choice is purely illusion.  It seems like I have such a choice,
> > > but the reality is that I'm locked in to requiring a dependency -
> > > the jboss-common-logging jar.  How is this better than using slf4j?
> > > 
> > > On the other hand, if I use JUL then the problem is reduced - now the
> > > user need only include slf4j and log4j JARs.  I think I've convinced
> > > Clebert to switch to JUL for jboss-serialization (though I bet he'll
> > > want to see what the outcome of this discussion is first), so that would
> > > get rid of the log4j - then it's just down to slf4j in MINA, which I'm
> > > currently lobbying on their mailing list.  If I succeed in my efforts,
> > > the user will have *no* external logging JARs needed for MINA, JBoss
> > > Serialization, *or* Remoting.
> > > 
> > >> * You can choose not to log at all, e.g. in a client
> > >> where you don't control the logging configuration at all
> > >> * It is very small
> > >>
> > >> $ du -h jboss-common-logging-spi-2.0.5-SNAPSHOT.jar 
> > >> 16K     jboss-common-logging-spi-2.0.5-SNAPSHOT.jar
> > > 
> > > This is good for things running within the container, but in the
> > > standalone case it's no different (to the user) than if I required
> > > commons-logging or slf4j myself.  Except that nobody else on the planet
> > > (well, outside of JBoss) would ever depend on jboss-common-logging.
> > > 
> > > The fact is, zero JARs is better than one, no matter how small it is.
> > > 
> > >> 2) There are many thirdparty components using different logging
> > >> frameworks. Even things like Hibernate and JGroups use clogging.
> > >>
> > >> Unless we are going to fork them to fix the logging
> > >> we're always going to have to deal with many logging frameworks.
> > >> (Most of them are from Apache - let a thousand WEEDS bloom :-)
> > > 
> > > Gotta start somewhere.  If I can convince MINA, perhaps other Apache
> > > projects will also see reason. :-)
> > > 
> > > Just because few people hold this viewpoint today doesn't mean that
> > > more won't tomorrow.
> > > 
> > >> 3) JDK logging is broken/useless
> > >>
> > >> There are many bugs in the JDK logging that lead to deadlocks,
> > >> memory leaks or just broken behaviour, we have workarounds
> > >> for some of them (as usual a spec written for JavaSE
> > >> doesn't anticipate the needs of JavaEE :-)
> > >> And as has been already said, there are no useful appenders.
> > >> Maybe with JDK7 we can fix/mitigate these problems?
> > > 
> > > Waiting for JDK7 to fix anything is... well, let's not do that.  I'm
> > > with Trustin on this - let's do a JBoss.org project for adding support
> > > to JDK logging to make it useful.  A LogManager to delegate to popular
> > > logging frameworks would be a great start - as would a collection of
> > > useful appenders.  This basically makes JDK logging into a built-in
> > > commons-logging of sorts - it becomes the user's choice what logging
> > > backend to use.
> > > 
> > > It would be my hope that the log4j/logback/etc of the world would
> > > integrate code to provide a LogManager of their own that would
> > > intercept JDK logging and handle it properly.  I think if we initiate
> > > this effort, they will follow.
> > > 
> > > In any case, by using JDK logging in these middle pieces, the user
> > > can just include JARs for the logging backend/API that they like.  This
> > > is the real crux of the whole issue.
> > > 
> > >> I'm sure this thread will appear again in 6 months when
> > >> the next new developer joins the project. 
> > > 
> > > When they run into the same problem and get frustrated by the lack of a
> > > good solution?  Sure.
> > > 
> > >> Logging always seems to be one of those flamebait topics,
> > >> I don't see why, it really isn't that interesting. :-)
> > > 
> > > If "interesting" were the only criteria...
> > > 
> > > - DML
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Adrian Brock
Chief Scientist
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
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