[hibernate-dev] Chat migration - D minus 115 until the death of HipChat

[Steve Ebersole]

I am never on HipChat at this point.  So don't expect any important matters
to be discussed there ;)


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:08 AM Sanne Grinovero <sanne at hibernate.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:25, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:
> >
> > > You also need to use ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter
> is a
> > new line in your message
> >
> > There's a checkbox to change that, and its value is persisted, so you
> only
> > have to tick it once. It's located just beside the "Send" button, I'm
> sure
> > you saw it :)
> > But apart from that, yes, I agree it's not very user-friendly. It's more
> > about the user getting used to the tool than the tool being made obvious
> > from the start.
> >
> > I'm also unsure how long Gitter will continue to be maintained, and how
> > well it will be. But we're mostly done migrating to Gitter; I don't see
> > much activity on HipChat anymore.
>
> Hey wait a second :) You invited us to try Gitter. That's fine but we
> never decided we're migrating to Gitter.
>
> I'm certainly not on Gitter regularly nor right now, so I'm expecting
> any important matter to be discussed on mailing lists or HipChat.
>
> >
> > Objectively, and regardless of my preferred tool, the main drawback I can
> > see about not moving to Zulip (or another tool) now, but only later, is
> the
> > confusion it will potentially create for users: we were on HipChat,
> > announced we were moving to Gitter and changed the links on our website,
> > and a few months later we move again. That is, I think, something we want
> > to avoid.
> >
> > So the question really is: is Gitter the right tool for us, and do we
> trust
> > it to stay the right tool for us long enough (say, at least a couple of
> > years)?
> >
> > Yoann Rodière
> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> > yoann at hibernate.org
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:41, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > So, I'm using Zulip right now on a daily basis.
> > >
> > > I maintain my first impression that it's really not user friendly.
> > >
> > > The fact that you are required to create topics for discussions (or
> find a
> > > suitable topic in a list of a gazillion topics previously created,
> > > obviously without a search engine where you need it - you have a
> global one
> > > at the top where you can find topics) is a pain. You also need to use
> > > ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter is a new line in your
> > > message. The UI is not very good and I don't see any improvement since
> the
> > > last time I tested it so I'm wondering if they are investing in it.
> > >
> > > We could decide to use it as a dev team as I suppose we would get used
> to
> > > it, but I seriously don't think it's a good alternative for our users
> to
> > > occasionally come chat with us.
> > >
> > > As for Gitter, I agree with the notification issue, the web client is
> all
> > > buggy. Haven't tested the desktop client yet.
> > >
> > > I must admit that I prefer using Gitter. Probably until I get bitten by
> > > the 1-1 history issue :).
> > >
> > > From what I can see, GitLab doesn't invest much in Gitter either so I
> > > wonder if it's gonna be viable in the long term.
> > >
> > > I suppose we'll see.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Guillaume
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:58 AM Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> The WildFly team is moving from Slack to Zulip, because Zulip seems
> to be
> > >> the only solution that is free, provides unlimited history, and allows
> > >> unlimited users even in private rooms (for OSS projects, at least).
> Gitter
> > >> has all that, except unlimited users, as we are limited to 25 people
> per
> > >> private room.
> > >>
> > >> You can join them here: https://wildfly.zulipchat.com/
> > >>
> > >> Back to our solution... We are now 71 days away from the
> decommissioning
> > >> of
> > >> HipChat. *Is everyone happy with Gitter?* Do you see a strong reason
> to
> > >> keep looking for another solution?
> > >>
> > >> For my part, I noticed problems with the web client, in particular
> with
> > >> notifications, which are sub-standard, but with the desktop client
> > >> everything seems to work fine. It's simple, but it does the job.
> > >>
> > >> Yoann Rodière
> > >> Hibernate NoORM Team
> > >> yoann at hibernate.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > On top of not being able to add more than 25 people to a private
> room,
> > >> > there's another limitation of Gitter that Fabio just noticed: the
> chat
> > >> > history for 1-to-1 conversations is very limited. In our case, we
> can
> > >> only
> > >> > see 2 days back, and there's no concept of archives like there is in
> > >> rooms.
> > >> >
> > >> > Meanwhile, the WildFly team is giving up on Slack because of the
> very
> > >> > limited size of history in free plans. They are investigating Zulip,
> > >> > RocketChat and MatterMost in particular. Maybe let's see what they
> end
> > >> up
> > >> > choosing and why?
> > >> >
> > >> > Yoann Rodière
> > >> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> > >> > yoann at hibernate.org
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 11:33, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 08:49, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> > Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it
> might be
> > >> >>> too successful as well
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Ok. Well, I guess we'll see. As I mentioned above, I don't think
> > >> forcing
> > >> >>> people to have a GitHub account will be very effective, but I
> can't
> > >> suggest
> > >> >>> a perfect solution either. Bots answering with a few links
> > >> (documentation,
> > >> >>> etc.) to the first message of each user come to mind, but that
> could
> > >> be
> > >> >>> considered rude, so I wouldn't do that unless the traffic becomes
> > >> >>> unmanageable. Other solutions include kicking out "spammers" (but
> that
> > >> >>> doesn't work if it's many users asking a single question), or
> making
> > >> the
> > >> >>> -dev rooms invite-only and only checking the user rooms once in a
> > >> while
> > >> >>> (might work if Gitter sends emails when your are mentioned while
> > >> offline).
> > >> >>> So, yeah, in short: I don't really know.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> > More just accountability.  But if some form of login in needed
> to
> > >> use
> > >> >>> Gitter, that's enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was
> > >> "allow
> > >> >>> anonymous", which I wanted to avoid.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Then it should be fine: anonymous access apparently only allows to
> > >> read
> > >> >>> messages. Login through GitLab, GitHub or Twitter is necessary in
> > >> order to
> > >> >>> start posting new messages.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Yoann Rodière
> > >> >>> Hibernate NoORM Team
> > >> >>> yoann at hibernate.org
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 19:34, Steve Ebersole <steve at hibernate.org
> >
> > >> >>> wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>> For me its not so much about "the right kind of people".  More
> just
> > >> >>>> accountability.  But if some form of login in needed to use
> Gitter,
> > >> that's
> > >> >>>> enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was "allow
> anonymous",
> > >> which
> > >> >>>> I wanted to avoid.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:41 AM Sanne Grinovero <
> > >> sanne at hibernate.org>
> > >> >>>> wrote:
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 17:27, Yoann Rodiere <
> yoann at hibernate.org>
> > >> >>>>> wrote:
> > >> >>>>> >
> > >> >>>>> > I don't see why we should force people to have a GitHub
> account,
> > >> >>>>> considering there are other means of logging into Gitter.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Ok.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> >
> > >> >>>>> > As to getting the right type of people, I'm not sure it's
> > >> relevant.
> > >> >>>>> Most people are likely to have one, and those who don't are
> likely
> > >> to not
> > >> >>>>> have one for political reasons (think free software extremists)
> > >> rather than
> > >> >>>>> because they aren't tech savvy enough: while the "hibernate"
> naming
> > >> might
> > >> >>>>> confuse users looking for information about grizzly bears, I
> doubt
> > >> my
> > >> >>>>> grandmother, my 7-year-old nephew or even my
> non-software-engineer
> > >> of a
> > >> >>>>> wife would end up on Gitter by mistake.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Well since that's obvious, clearly I was referring to a
> different
> > >> way
> > >> >>>>> of cathegorizing people joining@ not by age or expertise in
> > >> technology
> > >> >>>>> but in having reasonable expectations and willing to do some
> > >> research
> > >> >>>>> before bothering us all.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> You probably weren't around yet, but Hibernate has had hard
> times in
> > >> >>>>> which it was "victim of its own success": just too many
> > >> >>>>> kinda-interested people making a ton of basic questions that
> could
> > >> be
> > >> >>>>> easily solved otherwise.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Some "barriers" we have in place have made it manageable; of
> course
> > >> I
> > >> >>>>> can't tell if it's all merit of the barriers of entry or just
> people
> > >> >>>>> coming in lower volumes with better intentions, but I'm
> confident
> > >> that
> > >> >>>>> some of the barriers we have have helped to keep some sanity
> (e.g.
> > >> >>>>> login on #hibernate-dev on IRC requiring an account).
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it
> might be
> > >> >>>>> too successful as well.  But I guess we'll see, or let's use a
> very
> > >> >>>>> bad chat platform so to keep people from coming :P
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> >
> > >> >>>>> >
> > >> >>>>> > Yoann Rodière
> > >> >>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team
> > >> >>>>> > yoann at hibernate.org
> > >> >>>>> >
> > >> >>>>> >
> > >> >>>>> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 18:02, Sanne Grinovero <
> > >> sanne at hibernate.org>
> > >> >>>>> wrote:
> > >> >>>>> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 16:02, Steve Ebersole <
> > >> steve at hibernate.org>
> > >> >>>>> wrote:
> > >> >>>>> >> >
> > >> >>>>> >> > What is it a conscious decision to not require a GitHub
> account
> > >> >>>>> to join these rooms?  I just noticed that is a toggle-option in
> the
> > >> room's
> > >> >>>>> settings also.
> > >> >>>>> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> I don't remember. We created these rooms as an experiment in
> > >> 2014..
> > >> >>>>> >> Yoann created some more rooms recently.
> > >> >>>>> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> Should we enforce people to have a Github account? I'd like
> > >> that, I
> > >> >>>>> >> think it would better nudge towards getting the right type of
> > >> people
> > >> >>>>> >> to join.
> > >> >>>>> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> Thanks,
> > >> >>>>> >> Sanne
> > >> >>>>> >>
> > >> >>>>> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >
> > >> >>>>> >> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM Guillaume Smet <
> > >> >>>>> guillaume.smet at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Sanne Grinovero <
> > >> >>>>> sanne at hibernate.org>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> wrote:
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> > If one wants a lot of features then clearly only Slack
> is
> > >> the
> > >> >>>>> way to
> > >> >>>>> >> >> > go. Not saying we should go with Slack, just that we'll
> need
> > >> >>>>> to be
> > >> >>>>> >> >> > patient and we'll always be short of some features - if
> > >> that's
> > >> >>>>> not
> > >> >>>>> >> >> > acceptable then only Slack will make you happy.
> > >> >>>>> >> >> >
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> TBH, I don't care about fancy features. Gitter is OK for
> me
> > >> but
> > >> >>>>> yeah not
> > >> >>>>> >> >> having sound is really annoying.
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> I might miss notifications from time to time.
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> In any case, it will mostly be a problem for you all if
> you
> > >> ping
> > >> >>>>> me :).
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> > BTW the issue you linked to suggests the native clients
> > >> don't
> > >> >>>>> have
> > >> >>>>> >> >> > this specific problem.. might want to try that?
> > >> >>>>> >> >> >
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> I prefer to have it in the browser where I do most of my
> > >> >>>>> interactions with
> > >> >>>>> >> >> people.
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> And AFAIK, Yoann wrote they were only packaged as deb
> (and not
> > >> >>>>> very excited
> > >> >>>>> >> >> about compiling it).
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> BTW, tbh, I'm a bit worried GitLab has only one dev on it
> if
> > >> >>>>> they want to
> > >> >>>>> >> >> become a player in this area. They certainly have some
> work to
> > >> >>>>> do to catch
> > >> >>>>> >> >> up with others.
> > >> >>>>> >> >>
> > >> >>>>> >> >> --
> > >> >>>>> >> >> Guillaume
> > >> >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> > >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> > >> >>>>> >> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> > >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> > >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> > >> >>>>> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> hibernate-dev mailing list
> > >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> > >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > hibernate-dev mailing list
> > hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>
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