[hibernate-dev] Chat migration - D minus 115 until the death of HipChat

[Yoann Rodiere]

> Hey wait a second :) You invited us to try Gitter. That's fine but we
> never decided we're migrating to Gitter.

Sure. What I meant was that we are *de facto* done migrating to gitter. Not
that we meant it, but almost everyone is there already and almost no one is
on HipChat.

I wouldn't expect important matters to be discussed on Gitter, but then
again I seem to remember someone (who was that? ;) ) telling me to use the
mailing list, and not HipChat, for important matters. So, you should be
fine.

That being said, even if the decision to migrate was not made, we will have
to make it at some point. So if you want something else, I'd be happy to
hear about that :)

Yoann Rodière
Hibernate NoORM Team
yoann at hibernate.org


On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 16:16, Steve Ebersole <steve at hibernate.org> wrote:

> I am never on HipChat at this point.  So don't expect any important
> matters to be discussed there ;)
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:08 AM Sanne Grinovero <sanne at hibernate.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:25, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > You also need to use ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter
>> is a
>> > new line in your message
>> >
>> > There's a checkbox to change that, and its value is persisted, so you
>> only
>> > have to tick it once. It's located just beside the "Send" button, I'm
>> sure
>> > you saw it :)
>> > But apart from that, yes, I agree it's not very user-friendly. It's more
>> > about the user getting used to the tool than the tool being made obvious
>> > from the start.
>> >
>> > I'm also unsure how long Gitter will continue to be maintained, and how
>> > well it will be. But we're mostly done migrating to Gitter; I don't see
>> > much activity on HipChat anymore.
>>
>> Hey wait a second :) You invited us to try Gitter. That's fine but we
>> never decided we're migrating to Gitter.
>>
>> I'm certainly not on Gitter regularly nor right now, so I'm expecting
>> any important matter to be discussed on mailing lists or HipChat.
>>
>> >
>> > Objectively, and regardless of my preferred tool, the main drawback I
>> can
>> > see about not moving to Zulip (or another tool) now, but only later, is
>> the
>> > confusion it will potentially create for users: we were on HipChat,
>> > announced we were moving to Gitter and changed the links on our website,
>> > and a few months later we move again. That is, I think, something we
>> want
>> > to avoid.
>> >
>> > So the question really is: is Gitter the right tool for us, and do we
>> trust
>> > it to stay the right tool for us long enough (say, at least a couple of
>> > years)?
>> >
>> > Yoann Rodière
>> > Hibernate NoORM Team
>> > yoann at hibernate.org
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:41, Guillaume Smet <guillaume.smet at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > So, I'm using Zulip right now on a daily basis.
>> > >
>> > > I maintain my first impression that it's really not user friendly.
>> > >
>> > > The fact that you are required to create topics for discussions (or
>> find a
>> > > suitable topic in a list of a gazillion topics previously created,
>> > > obviously without a search engine where you need it - you have a
>> global one
>> > > at the top where you can find topics) is a pain. You also need to use
>> > > ctrl+enter to send a message, the default enter is a new line in your
>> > > message. The UI is not very good and I don't see any improvement
>> since the
>> > > last time I tested it so I'm wondering if they are investing in it.
>> > >
>> > > We could decide to use it as a dev team as I suppose we would get
>> used to
>> > > it, but I seriously don't think it's a good alternative for our users
>> to
>> > > occasionally come chat with us.
>> > >
>> > > As for Gitter, I agree with the notification issue, the web client is
>> all
>> > > buggy. Haven't tested the desktop client yet.
>> > >
>> > > I must admit that I prefer using Gitter. Probably until I get bitten
>> by
>> > > the 1-1 history issue :).
>> > >
>> > > From what I can see, GitLab doesn't invest much in Gitter either so I
>> > > wonder if it's gonna be viable in the long term.
>> > >
>> > > I suppose we'll see.
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Guillaume
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:58 AM Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> The WildFly team is moving from Slack to Zulip, because Zulip seems
>> to be
>> > >> the only solution that is free, provides unlimited history, and
>> allows
>> > >> unlimited users even in private rooms (for OSS projects, at least).
>> Gitter
>> > >> has all that, except unlimited users, as we are limited to 25 people
>> per
>> > >> private room.
>> > >>
>> > >> You can join them here: https://wildfly.zulipchat.com/
>> > >>
>> > >> Back to our solution... We are now 71 days away from the
>> decommissioning
>> > >> of
>> > >> HipChat. *Is everyone happy with Gitter?* Do you see a strong reason
>> to
>> > >> keep looking for another solution?
>> > >>
>> > >> For my part, I noticed problems with the web client, in particular
>> with
>> > >> notifications, which are sub-standard, but with the desktop client
>> > >> everything seems to work fine. It's simple, but it does the job.
>> > >>
>> > >> Yoann Rodière
>> > >> Hibernate NoORM Team
>> > >> yoann at hibernate.org
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 14:40, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > On top of not being able to add more than 25 people to a private
>> room,
>> > >> > there's another limitation of Gitter that Fabio just noticed: the
>> chat
>> > >> > history for 1-to-1 conversations is very limited. In our case, we
>> can
>> > >> only
>> > >> > see 2 days back, and there's no concept of archives like there is
>> in
>> > >> rooms.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Meanwhile, the WildFly team is giving up on Slack because of the
>> very
>> > >> > limited size of history in free plans. They are investigating
>> Zulip,
>> > >> > RocketChat and MatterMost in particular. Maybe let's see what they
>> end
>> > >> up
>> > >> > choosing and why?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Yoann Rodière
>> > >> > Hibernate NoORM Team
>> > >> > yoann at hibernate.org
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 11:33, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 08:49, Yoann Rodiere <yoann at hibernate.org>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>> > Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it
>> might be
>> > >> >>> too successful as well
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> Ok. Well, I guess we'll see. As I mentioned above, I don't think
>> > >> forcing
>> > >> >>> people to have a GitHub account will be very effective, but I
>> can't
>> > >> suggest
>> > >> >>> a perfect solution either. Bots answering with a few links
>> > >> (documentation,
>> > >> >>> etc.) to the first message of each user come to mind, but that
>> could
>> > >> be
>> > >> >>> considered rude, so I wouldn't do that unless the traffic becomes
>> > >> >>> unmanageable. Other solutions include kicking out "spammers"
>> (but that
>> > >> >>> doesn't work if it's many users asking a single question), or
>> making
>> > >> the
>> > >> >>> -dev rooms invite-only and only checking the user rooms once in a
>> > >> while
>> > >> >>> (might work if Gitter sends emails when your are mentioned while
>> > >> offline).
>> > >> >>> So, yeah, in short: I don't really know.
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> > More just accountability.  But if some form of login in needed
>> to
>> > >> use
>> > >> >>> Gitter, that's enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was
>> > >> "allow
>> > >> >>> anonymous", which I wanted to avoid.
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> Then it should be fine: anonymous access apparently only allows
>> to
>> > >> read
>> > >> >>> messages. Login through GitLab, GitHub or Twitter is necessary in
>> > >> order to
>> > >> >>> start posting new messages.
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> Yoann Rodière
>> > >> >>> Hibernate NoORM Team
>> > >> >>> yoann at hibernate.org
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 19:34, Steve Ebersole <
>> steve at hibernate.org>
>> > >> >>> wrote:
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>>> For me its not so much about "the right kind of people".  More
>> just
>> > >> >>>> accountability.  But if some form of login in needed to use
>> Gitter,
>> > >> that's
>> > >> >>>> enough for me.  Sounded like the other option was "allow
>> anonymous",
>> > >> which
>> > >> >>>> I wanted to avoid.
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:41 AM Sanne Grinovero <
>> > >> sanne at hibernate.org>
>> > >> >>>> wrote:
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 17:27, Yoann Rodiere <
>> yoann at hibernate.org>
>> > >> >>>>> wrote:
>> > >> >>>>> >
>> > >> >>>>> > I don't see why we should force people to have a GitHub
>> account,
>> > >> >>>>> considering there are other means of logging into Gitter.
>> > >> >>>>>
>> > >> >>>>> Ok.
>> > >> >>>>>
>> > >> >>>>> >
>> > >> >>>>> > As to getting the right type of people, I'm not sure it's
>> > >> relevant.
>> > >> >>>>> Most people are likely to have one, and those who don't are
>> likely
>> > >> to not
>> > >> >>>>> have one for political reasons (think free software extremists)
>> > >> rather than
>> > >> >>>>> because they aren't tech savvy enough: while the "hibernate"
>> naming
>> > >> might
>> > >> >>>>> confuse users looking for information about grizzly bears, I
>> doubt
>> > >> my
>> > >> >>>>> grandmother, my 7-year-old nephew or even my
>> non-software-engineer
>> > >> of a
>> > >> >>>>> wife would end up on Gitter by mistake.
>> > >> >>>>>
>> > >> >>>>> Well since that's obvious, clearly I was referring to a
>> different
>> > >> way
>> > >> >>>>> of cathegorizing people joining@ not by age or expertise in
>> > >> technology
>> > >> >>>>> but in having reasonable expectations and willing to do some
>> > >> research
>> > >> >>>>> before bothering us all.
>> > >> >>>>>
>> > >> >>>>> You probably weren't around yet, but Hibernate has had hard
>> times in
>> > >> >>>>> which it was "victim of its own success": just too many
>> > >> >>>>> kinda-interested people making a ton of basic questions that
>> could
>> > >> be
>> > >> >>>>> easily solved otherwise.
>> > >> >>>>>
>> > >> >>>>> Some "barriers" we have in place have made it manageable; of
>> course
>> > >> I
>> > >> >>>>> can't tell if it's all merit of the barriers of entry or just
>> people
>> > >> >>>>> coming in lower volumes with better intentions, but I'm
>> confident
>> > >> that
>> > >> >>>>> some of the barriers we have have helped to keep some sanity
>> (e.g.
>> > >> >>>>> login on #hibernate-dev on IRC requiring an account).
>> > >> >>>>>
>> > >> >>>>> Assuming the new chat platform takes off, there's a risk it
>> might be
>> > >> >>>>> too successful as well.  But I guess we'll see, or let's use a
>> very
>> > >> >>>>> bad chat platform so to keep people from coming :P
>> > >> >>>>>
>> > >> >>>>> >
>> > >> >>>>> >
>> > >> >>>>> > Yoann Rodière
>> > >> >>>>> > Hibernate NoORM Team
>> > >> >>>>> > yoann at hibernate.org
>> > >> >>>>> >
>> > >> >>>>> >
>> > >> >>>>> > On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 18:02, Sanne Grinovero <
>> > >> sanne at hibernate.org>
>> > >> >>>>> wrote:
>> > >> >>>>> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 at 16:02, Steve Ebersole <
>> > >> steve at hibernate.org>
>> > >> >>>>> wrote:
>> > >> >>>>> >> >
>> > >> >>>>> >> > What is it a conscious decision to not require a GitHub
>> account
>> > >> >>>>> to join these rooms?  I just noticed that is a toggle-option
>> in the
>> > >> room's
>> > >> >>>>> settings also.
>> > >> >>>>> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> I don't remember. We created these rooms as an experiment in
>> > >> 2014..
>> > >> >>>>> >> Yoann created some more rooms recently.
>> > >> >>>>> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> Should we enforce people to have a Github account? I'd like
>> > >> that, I
>> > >> >>>>> >> think it would better nudge towards getting the right type
>> of
>> > >> people
>> > >> >>>>> >> to join.
>> > >> >>>>> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> Thanks,
>> > >> >>>>> >> Sanne
>> > >> >>>>> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >
>> > >> >>>>> >> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:17 AM Guillaume Smet <
>> > >> >>>>> guillaume.smet at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Sanne Grinovero <
>> > >> >>>>> sanne at hibernate.org>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> wrote:
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> > If one wants a lot of features then clearly only Slack
>> is
>> > >> the
>> > >> >>>>> way to
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> > go. Not saying we should go with Slack, just that
>> we'll need
>> > >> >>>>> to be
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> > patient and we'll always be short of some features - if
>> > >> that's
>> > >> >>>>> not
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> > acceptable then only Slack will make you happy.
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> >
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> TBH, I don't care about fancy features. Gitter is OK for
>> me
>> > >> but
>> > >> >>>>> yeah not
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> having sound is really annoying.
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> I might miss notifications from time to time.
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> In any case, it will mostly be a problem for you all if
>> you
>> > >> ping
>> > >> >>>>> me :).
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> > BTW the issue you linked to suggests the native clients
>> > >> don't
>> > >> >>>>> have
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> > this specific problem.. might want to try that?
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> >
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> I prefer to have it in the browser where I do most of my
>> > >> >>>>> interactions with
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> people.
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> And AFAIK, Yoann wrote they were only packaged as deb
>> (and not
>> > >> >>>>> very excited
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> about compiling it).
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> BTW, tbh, I'm a bit worried GitLab has only one dev on
>> it if
>> > >> >>>>> they want to
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> become a player in this area. They certainly have some
>> work to
>> > >> >>>>> do to catch
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> up with others.
>> > >> >>>>> >> >>
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> --
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> Guillaume
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
>> > >> >>>>> >> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>> > >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev mailing list
>> > >> >>>>> >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
>> > >> >>>>> >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>> > >> >>>>>
>> > >> >>>>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> hibernate-dev mailing list
>> > >> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
>> > >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>> > >
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > hibernate-dev mailing list
>> > hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
>> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> hibernate-dev mailing list
>> hibernate-dev at lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
>
>