[jboss-as7-dev] manual way to do logging?

Sat Jun 9 11:36:11 EDT 2012

I'll rephrase that...Being a dick requires no effort from me. :)

On 6/9/12 11:33 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
> Yes, I'll spend 10x the effort just to be a dick :)
>
> On 6/9/12 11:26 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>> Yet you'll expend 10x the effort bitching and moaning?  That seems
>> incongruous to me.
>>
>> On 06/09/2012 10:12 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>> Not gonna bother filing a bug, because I ain't gonna use it.
>>>
>>> On 6/9/12 10:58 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>>> File bugs here: http://issues.jboss.org/browse/LOGTOOL
>>>>
>>>> On 06/09/2012 09:27 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>> Well, in looking at the way you do things, it is impossible to do manual
>>>>> logging.  Sigh...
>>>>>
>>>>> So, at least I thought I could at least remove jboss logging as a binary
>>>>> dependency yet still use the processor to generate basic string
>>>>> constants based on included localization property files...
>>>>>
>>>>> BUT...
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a small bug (or maybe it is a feature) in that creating the
>>>>> message string is *ALWAYS* a string concatination if you have a message id:
>>>>>
>>>>>           public final String jbossLoggingSucks() {
>>>>>               String result = ((projectCode +"000102: ")+
>>>>> jbossLoggingSucks$str());
>>>>>               return result;
>>>>>           }
>>>>>
>>>>> When you fix that, let me know.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/8/12 4:11 AM, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's the crux really. I always bitch when I have to add a log message with JBoss logging compared to the good old log4j. But I would not meet the requirements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See it positively, it's annoying enough to add a log or throw an exception that I do it less often and my code is even more efficient :D
>>>>>>> The other annoying bit is when your log interface is in a common module and you work on a dependent module. This requires full recompilation and I am often bitten by this with method not found exceptions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, same happened often in eclipse plugins - they tend to move the logging message/interfaces into each module and only
>>>>>> truly shared ones out in common.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's all a balance act.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /max
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8 juin 2012, at 09:44, Max Rydahl Andersen<max.andersen at redhat.com>   wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> btw. yes, I also think jboss logging is over-engineered for basic usage but
>>>>>>>> for stuff that needs to be memory efficient and i18n maintainable I don't recall
>>>>>>>> seeing anything better....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2012, at 09:31, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Bill/David,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I unfortunately cannot use JBoss Logging yet because of how Eclipse plugins are built, but
>>>>>>>>> just a few observations on this "fun" topic ;)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Static vs non-static logging:
>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Eclipse plugins already are used to have to create a static string message in an interface to do i18n of logging; they even provide tooling to make this easy to do - that helps *alot*;
>>>>>>>>> jboss logging doesn't have that though.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately we actually in Eclipse world also have the non-interface based stuff too that Bill wants and yes its awesome you can just write it quick'n'dirty but maan its a mess to work with
>>>>>>>>> afterwards over time. (In resteasy you probably don't see it because its much smaller than the number of eclipse plugins we have to maintain, but if I could choose now, I would like
>>>>>>>>> to have that stick hit me everytime I was lazy)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hacker tip: Nothing prevents you from doing a generic highlevel interface field you can use everytime you are feeling lazy - good thing is you or others can easily find the usages of that
>>>>>>>>> and go through and convert these messages. just saying.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Performance:
>>>>>>>>> -------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jason and David aren't full of shit here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They proved early on in AS7 lifetime that even basic stuff in logging like checking if log is activated was costing as much as 10% overhead - even with logging disabled.  That was before string concatenation gets into play.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And if you don't trust them then I can tell you Eclipse went through the exact same exercise some years back. They had grown organically over time from a few small plugins to thousands. and suddenly they
>>>>>>>>> were faced with several hundred megabytes of overhead and a sluggish performance. Their move to use static interfaces made a big impact in runtime performance AND memory usage.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> JBoss Logging actually takes this even further - but i'll leave David and Jasons to explain those :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Usability:
>>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You do not need an additional maven plugin if you just use the plain standard annotation processor.
>>>>>>>>> You keep saying you need one so i'm curious why you think that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is though one place where this annotation processor sucks, and that is that it isn't isolated
>>>>>>>>> enough to be reusable and runnable within an IDE such as Eclipse :)
>>>>>>>>> https://issues.jboss.org/browse/LOGTOOL-51 captures that; this shouldn't affect you though since you
>>>>>>>>> are just using maven and vi.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ....and I'm all for that beer too - can we talk about how JBoss Logging could be made to work with Eclipse logging framework ? :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> /max
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2012, at 00:43, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/12 6:21 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/07/2012 04:55 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> P.S. I hope we can have a few beers at JUDCon/JBossWorld and *NOT* talk
>>>>>>>>>>>> about this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> :-D
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don't get me wrong, I'm not pissed or anything.  I do love a good
>>>>>>>>>>> argument though.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh thank god!  I love a good argument too!  I don't know about you, but
>>>>>>>>>> sitting at home every day, you get a bit ornery....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've exhausted my arguments anyways.  Hopefully Jim can take the banner
>>>>>>>>>> and run with it...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Bill Burke
>>>>>>>>>> JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>>>>>>>> http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev at lists.jboss.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-as7-dev
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev at lists.jboss.org
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Bill Burke
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com