[jboss-as7-dev] manual way to do logging?

Sat Jun 9 11:33:38 EDT 2012

Yes, I'll spend 10x the effort just to be a dick :)

On 6/9/12 11:26 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
> Yet you'll expend 10x the effort bitching and moaning?  That seems
> incongruous to me.
>
> On 06/09/2012 10:12 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>> Not gonna bother filing a bug, because I ain't gonna use it.
>>
>> On 6/9/12 10:58 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>> File bugs here: http://issues.jboss.org/browse/LOGTOOL
>>>
>>> On 06/09/2012 09:27 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>> Well, in looking at the way you do things, it is impossible to do manual
>>>> logging.  Sigh...
>>>>
>>>> So, at least I thought I could at least remove jboss logging as a binary
>>>> dependency yet still use the processor to generate basic string
>>>> constants based on included localization property files...
>>>>
>>>> BUT...
>>>>
>>>> There's a small bug (or maybe it is a feature) in that creating the
>>>> message string is *ALWAYS* a string concatination if you have a message id:
>>>>
>>>>          public final String jbossLoggingSucks() {
>>>>              String result = ((projectCode +"000102: ")+
>>>> jbossLoggingSucks$str());
>>>>              return result;
>>>>          }
>>>>
>>>> When you fix that, let me know.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/8/12 4:11 AM, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That's the crux really. I always bitch when I have to add a log message with JBoss logging compared to the good old log4j. But I would not meet the requirements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See it positively, it's annoying enough to add a log or throw an exception that I do it less often and my code is even more efficient :D
>>>>>> The other annoying bit is when your log interface is in a common module and you work on a dependent module. This requires full recompilation and I am often bitten by this with method not found exceptions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, same happened often in eclipse plugins - they tend to move the logging message/interfaces into each module and only
>>>>> truly shared ones out in common.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's all a balance act.
>>>>>
>>>>> /max
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8 juin 2012, at 09:44, Max Rydahl Andersen<max.andersen at redhat.com>   wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> btw. yes, I also think jboss logging is over-engineered for basic usage but
>>>>>>> for stuff that needs to be memory efficient and i18n maintainable I don't recall
>>>>>>> seeing anything better....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2012, at 09:31, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Bill/David,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I unfortunately cannot use JBoss Logging yet because of how Eclipse plugins are built, but
>>>>>>>> just a few observations on this "fun" topic ;)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Static vs non-static logging:
>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eclipse plugins already are used to have to create a static string message in an interface to do i18n of logging; they even provide tooling to make this easy to do - that helps *alot*;
>>>>>>>> jboss logging doesn't have that though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately we actually in Eclipse world also have the non-interface based stuff too that Bill wants and yes its awesome you can just write it quick'n'dirty but maan its a mess to work with
>>>>>>>> afterwards over time. (In resteasy you probably don't see it because its much smaller than the number of eclipse plugins we have to maintain, but if I could choose now, I would like
>>>>>>>> to have that stick hit me everytime I was lazy)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hacker tip: Nothing prevents you from doing a generic highlevel interface field you can use everytime you are feeling lazy - good thing is you or others can easily find the usages of that
>>>>>>>> and go through and convert these messages. just saying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Performance:
>>>>>>>> -------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jason and David aren't full of shit here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They proved early on in AS7 lifetime that even basic stuff in logging like checking if log is activated was costing as much as 10% overhead - even with logging disabled.  That was before string concatenation gets into play.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And if you don't trust them then I can tell you Eclipse went through the exact same exercise some years back. They had grown organically over time from a few small plugins to thousands. and suddenly they
>>>>>>>> were faced with several hundred megabytes of overhead and a sluggish performance. Their move to use static interfaces made a big impact in runtime performance AND memory usage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JBoss Logging actually takes this even further - but i'll leave David and Jasons to explain those :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Usability:
>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You do not need an additional maven plugin if you just use the plain standard annotation processor.
>>>>>>>> You keep saying you need one so i'm curious why you think that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is though one place where this annotation processor sucks, and that is that it isn't isolated
>>>>>>>> enough to be reusable and runnable within an IDE such as Eclipse :)
>>>>>>>> https://issues.jboss.org/browse/LOGTOOL-51 captures that; this shouldn't affect you though since you
>>>>>>>> are just using maven and vi.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ....and I'm all for that beer too - can we talk about how JBoss Logging could be made to work with Eclipse logging framework ? :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> /max
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2012, at 00:43, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/12 6:21 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 06/07/2012 04:55 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> P.S. I hope we can have a few beers at JUDCon/JBossWorld and *NOT* talk
>>>>>>>>>>> about this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> :-D
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Don't get me wrong, I'm not pissed or anything.  I do love a good
>>>>>>>>>> argument though.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh thank god!  I love a good argument too!  I don't know about you, but
>>>>>>>>> sitting at home every day, you get a bit ornery....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've exhausted my arguments anyways.  Hopefully Jim can take the banner
>>>>>>>>> and run with it...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Bill Burke
>>>>>>>>> JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>>>>>>> http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev at lists.jboss.org
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-as7-dev
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

-- 
Bill Burke
JBoss, a division of Red Hat
http://bill.burkecentral.com