[jboss-as7-dev] manual way to do logging?

Jason Greene jgreene at redhat.com
Sat Jun 9 13:23:36 EDT 2012 

I know you think that's a good thing but it's really not. We write software to accomplish a goals that meet the needs of our users over our own personal enjoyment (and by users i mean the priority is on the ones that see the log messages, not the ones that write them) Apparently you prefer the opposite. 

On Jun 9, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Bill Burke <bburke at redhat.com> wrote:

> I'll rephrase that...Being a dick requires no effort from me. :)
> 
> On 6/9/12 11:33 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>> Yes, I'll spend 10x the effort just to be a dick :)
>> 
>> On 6/9/12 11:26 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>> Yet you'll expend 10x the effort bitching and moaning?  That seems
>>> incongruous to me.
>>> 
>>> On 06/09/2012 10:12 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>> Not gonna bother filing a bug, because I ain't gonna use it.
>>>> 
>>>> On 6/9/12 10:58 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>>>> File bugs here: http://issues.jboss.org/browse/LOGTOOL
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 06/09/2012 09:27 AM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>>> Well, in looking at the way you do things, it is impossible to do manual
>>>>>> logging.  Sigh...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So, at least I thought I could at least remove jboss logging as a binary
>>>>>> dependency yet still use the processor to generate basic string
>>>>>> constants based on included localization property files...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> BUT...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There's a small bug (or maybe it is a feature) in that creating the
>>>>>> message string is *ALWAYS* a string concatination if you have a message id:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>          public final String jbossLoggingSucks() {
>>>>>>              String result = ((projectCode +"000102: ")+
>>>>>> jbossLoggingSucks$str());
>>>>>>              return result;
>>>>>>          }
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When you fix that, let me know.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 6/8/12 4:11 AM, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> That's the crux really. I always bitch when I have to add a log message with JBoss logging compared to the good old log4j. But I would not meet the requirements.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> See it positively, it's annoying enough to add a log or throw an exception that I do it less often and my code is even more efficient :D
>>>>>>>> The other annoying bit is when your log interface is in a common module and you work on a dependent module. This requires full recompilation and I am often bitten by this with method not found exceptions.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yes, same happened often in eclipse plugins - they tend to move the logging message/interfaces into each module and only
>>>>>>> truly shared ones out in common.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It's all a balance act.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> /max
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 8 juin 2012, at 09:44, Max Rydahl Andersen<max.andersen at redhat.com>   wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> btw. yes, I also think jboss logging is over-engineered for basic usage but
>>>>>>>>> for stuff that needs to be memory efficient and i18n maintainable I don't recall
>>>>>>>>> seeing anything better....
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2012, at 09:31, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Bill/David,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I unfortunately cannot use JBoss Logging yet because of how Eclipse plugins are built, but
>>>>>>>>>> just a few observations on this "fun" topic ;)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Static vs non-static logging:
>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Eclipse plugins already are used to have to create a static string message in an interface to do i18n of logging; they even provide tooling to make this easy to do - that helps *alot*;
>>>>>>>>>> jboss logging doesn't have that though.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately we actually in Eclipse world also have the non-interface based stuff too that Bill wants and yes its awesome you can just write it quick'n'dirty but maan its a mess to work with
>>>>>>>>>> afterwards over time. (In resteasy you probably don't see it because its much smaller than the number of eclipse plugins we have to maintain, but if I could choose now, I would like
>>>>>>>>>> to have that stick hit me everytime I was lazy)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hacker tip: Nothing prevents you from doing a generic highlevel interface field you can use everytime you are feeling lazy - good thing is you or others can easily find the usages of that
>>>>>>>>>> and go through and convert these messages. just saying.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Performance:
>>>>>>>>>> -------------------
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jason and David aren't full of shit here.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> They proved early on in AS7 lifetime that even basic stuff in logging like checking if log is activated was costing as much as 10% overhead - even with logging disabled.  That was before string concatenation gets into play.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> And if you don't trust them then I can tell you Eclipse went through the exact same exercise some years back. They had grown organically over time from a few small plugins to thousands. and suddenly they
>>>>>>>>>> were faced with several hundred megabytes of overhead and a sluggish performance. Their move to use static interfaces made a big impact in runtime performance AND memory usage.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> JBoss Logging actually takes this even further - but i'll leave David and Jasons to explain those :)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Usability:
>>>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You do not need an additional maven plugin if you just use the plain standard annotation processor.
>>>>>>>>>> You keep saying you need one so i'm curious why you think that.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> There is though one place where this annotation processor sucks, and that is that it isn't isolated
>>>>>>>>>> enough to be reusable and runnable within an IDE such as Eclipse :)
>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.jboss.org/browse/LOGTOOL-51 captures that; this shouldn't affect you though since you
>>>>>>>>>> are just using maven and vi.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ....and I'm all for that beer too - can we talk about how JBoss Logging could be made to work with Eclipse logging framework ? :)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> /max
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2012, at 00:43, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/7/12 6:21 PM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/07/2012 04:55 PM, Bill Burke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> P.S. I hope we can have a few beers at JUDCon/JBossWorld and *NOT* talk
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> :-D
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't get me wrong, I'm not pissed or anything.  I do love a good
>>>>>>>>>>>> argument though.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Oh thank god!  I love a good argument too!  I don't know about you, but
>>>>>>>>>>> sitting at home every day, you get a bit ornery....
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I've exhausted my arguments anyways.  Hopefully Jim can take the banner
>>>>>>>>>>> and run with it...
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Burke
>>>>>>>>>>> JBoss, a division of Red Hat
>>>>>>>>>>> http://bill.burkecentral.com
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev at lists.jboss.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-as7-dev
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev at lists.jboss.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-as7-dev
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>> jboss-as7-dev at lists.jboss.org
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/jboss-as7-dev
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Bill Burke
> JBoss, a division of Red Hat
> http://bill.burkecentral.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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