On 10/05/16 14:18, Ton Swieb wrote: > > Hi, > > I understand from the Keycloak documentation that both MongoDB and > multiple flavours of RDBMS are supported, but I cannot find any > recommendation whether to use MongoDB or an RDBMS by default. > > Which one is best suited for the Keycloak product? > I am anticipating a user base of around 10000 users (mainly via > Identity Brokering), will use offline tokens and use Keycloak as an > Identity Broker for a SAML IdP. I am starting from a green field > situation and do not have any restrictions on using a specific DB. > > I found a comment of Bill Birke on the Keycloak developer > mailing-list, > http://lists.jboss.org/pipermail/keycloak-dev/2015-July/004924.html, > wishing he could drop Mongo and not seeing any advantages of using > Mongo, but unfortunately the thread does not end with a > conclusion/decision :-) > > What is the current position of the Keycloak team about using Mongo? We added Mongo support very early (somewhen around 2013) as an alternative storage, which was at that time required by other project, which consumed keycloak. The second project (Liveoak) is not under active development anymore, but in the meantime, a lot of people started to use Keycloak with Mongo and it seems that some of them already in production. The advantage of Mongo is good performance and scalability. At some point, when I tested performance with bigger number of users, I saw much better performance for Mongo then for MySQL. Also Mongo has support for DB clustering and sharding (some RDBMS has it too AFAIK, but usually you need to pay for them, which is not the case with Mongo ;)) . On the other hand, biggest disadvantage of Mongo is missing support for transactions. So in theory, if some error/bad situation happens, you can theoretically end with partially inconsistent data in DB. Marek > > > In which scenario should I consider using MongoDB over an RDBMS or > vice versa? There are off course the usual pro/con's between NoSQL and > RDBMS, but I would like to know to what extend they hold true when it > comes to using Keycloak in production or whether Keycloak is optimized > specifically for NoSQL or RDBMS. > > Regards, > > Ton >

Hi Marek, Thank you for your answer. So if I understand you correctly there are no plans to drop Mongo support in the near feature. Good to know.

How many (concurrent) users did you need to use to see a performance difference between Mongo and MySQL?

I assume the lack of transaction support in Mongo only becomes an issue with multi row/document transactions. Are multi row/document transactions used commonly in the Keycloak application or are most transactions limited to a single row/document?

Regards, Ton 2016-05-11 9:45 GMT+02:00 Marek Posolda <mposolda(a)redhat.com&gt;: > On 10/05/16 14:18, Ton Swieb wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I understand from the Keycloak documentation that both MongoDB and >> multiple flavours of RDBMS are supported, but I cannot find any >> recommendation whether to use MongoDB or an RDBMS by default. >> >> Which one is best suited for the Keycloak product? >> I am anticipating a user base of around 10000 users (mainly via >> Identity Brokering), will use offline tokens and use Keycloak as an >> Identity Broker for a SAML IdP. I am starting from a green field >> situation and do not have any restrictions on using a specific DB. >> >> I found a comment of Bill Birke on the Keycloak developer >> mailing-list, >> http://lists.jboss.org/pipermail/keycloak-dev/2015-July/004924.html, >> wishing he could drop Mongo and not seeing any advantages of using >> Mongo, but unfortunately the thread does not end with a >> conclusion/decision :-) >> >> What is the current position of the Keycloak team about using Mongo? > We added Mongo support very early (somewhen around 2013) as an alternative > storage, which was at that time required by other project, which consumed > keycloak. The second project (Liveoak) is not under active development > anymore, but in the meantime, a lot of people started to use Keycloak with > Mongo and it seems that some of them already in production. > > The advantage of Mongo is good performance and scalability. At some point, > when I tested performance with bigger number of users, I saw much better > performance for Mongo then for MySQL. Also Mongo has support for DB > clustering and sharding (some RDBMS has it too AFAIK, but usually you need > to pay for them, which is not the case with Mongo ;)) . On the other hand, > biggest disadvantage of Mongo is missing support for transactions. So in > theory, if some error/bad situation happens, you can theoretically end with > partially inconsistent data in DB. > > Marek >> >> In which scenario should I consider using MongoDB over an RDBMS or >> vice versa? There are off course the usual pro/con's between NoSQL and >> RDBMS, but I would like to know to what extend they hold true when it >> comes to using Keycloak in production or whether Keycloak is optimized >> specifically for NoSQL or RDBMS. >> >> Regards, >> >> Ton >>

Hi Marek, Thanks for this anwer. It makes the decision between MongoDB and a RDBMS flavour much easier. I don't expect to do a lot of concurrent user creation / deletion. Usrs will added over time through Identity Brokering. I expect the focus of the load to be on users login/logout session. As this is mainly handled by caching I think I will go for a RDBMS flavour. Also because Stian pointed out that MongoDB will not be supported in the productized version in the beginning. A remaining question I have is what the size of the cache must be per user. I found another Keycloak thread which stated the size of the cache is not equal to the number of users in the DB. Do you know how big the cache must be to facilitate for example 10000 users?

Regards, Ton 2016-05-12 8:43 GMT+02:00 Marek Posolda <mposolda(a)redhat.com&gt;: > On 11/05/16 17:43, Ton Swieb wrote: >> Hi Marek, >> >> Thank you for your answer. So if I understand you correctly there are >> no plans to drop Mongo support in the near feature. Good to know. > AFAIK we will keep mongo as many people are using that. But I am not in > position to promise anything related this :-) >> >> How many (concurrent) users did you need to use to see a performance >> difference between Mongo and MySQL? > Depends on test scenario. For example if you have test for concurrent > login/logout of same set of users, then you might not see so big difference. > That's because keycloak has caching layer, so once user (or other object) is > read from DB for first time, then it's cached and next reads of same user > read this user from cache instead of from DB. So performance of DB is not so > visible here due to huge amount of caching. > > The difference might be more visible if you do some write operations (like > creating or deleting users). For example test for write/deleting of users. > I've just tried to run performance for create and delete 10000 users. The > results: > MySQL: > 8:08:47,096 INFO Operation 'create 10000 users' average: 227756 ms > 08:08:47,096 INFO Operation 'delete 10000 users' average: 110315 ms > > Mongo: > 08:14:57,957 INFO Operation 'create 10000 users' average: 157432 ms > 08:14:57,958 INFO Operation 'delete 10000 users' average: 49908 ms > > You can see that difference is not so big. That's because in 1.9 release, we > did lot of tuning for RDBMS model and we added some DB indexes to tune > performance. However for Mongo, we did not yet do this tuning.Once we do > that, the difference will be likely bigger. You can see here the indexes we > did for RDBMS for inspiration if you want to tune your mongo: > > https://github.com/keycloak/keycloak/blob/master/model/jpa/src/main/resou... > https://github.com/keycloak/keycloak/blob/master/model/jpa/src/main/resou... > > > If you want to try the performance test, you can do this (with MySQL, > assuming you have DB "keycloak" on localhost:3306 and user "keycloak" with > password "keycloak"): > > cd $KEYCLOAK_SOURCES > mvn clean install -DskipTests=true > cd testsuite/integration-arquillian/tests/other/jpa-performance > mvn clean install > -Dkeycloak.connectionsJpa.url=jdbc:mysql://localhost/keycloak > -Dkeycloak.connectionsJpa.driver=com.mysql.jdbc.Driver > -Dkeycloak.connectionsJpa.user=keycloak > -Dkeycloak.connectionsJpa.password=keycloak > -Dmany.users.read.after.create=true -Dmany.users.create.objects=true > > > with mongo, you can run the same test with last command like this (assuming > mongo running on localhost, test will use DB "keycloak-perf" ): > > mvn clean install -Dkeycloak.realm.provider=mongo > -Dkeycloak.user.provider=mongo > -Dkeycloak.userSessionPersister.provider=mongo > -Dkeycloak.eventsStore.provider=mongo > -Dkeycloak.connectionsMongo.db=keycloak-perf > -Dmany.users.read.after.create=true -Dmany.users.create.objects=true > > See the files for more available properties: > https://github.com/keycloak/keycloak/blob/master/testsuite/integration-ar... > https://github.com/keycloak/keycloak/blob/master/testsuite/integration-ar... > >> I assume the lack of transaction support in Mongo only becomes an >> issue with multi row/document transactions. Are multi row/document >> transactions used commonly in the Keycloak application or are most >> transactions limited to a single row/document? > No, most of operations in admin console usually create/update just single > object. Same if user updates his profile in account management or new user > registers, it's just single user row involved. There are some exceptions for > this - for example if you create new realm or import realm, there are > transactions under many different objects in different collection. But > creating or importing realm is usually very rare operation. > > Marek >> >> Regards, Ton >> >> 2016-05-11 9:45 GMT+02:00 Marek Posolda <mposolda(a)redhat.com&gt;: >>> On 10/05/16 14:18, Ton Swieb wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I understand from the Keycloak documentation that both MongoDB and >>>> multiple flavours of RDBMS are supported, but I cannot find any >>>> recommendation whether to use MongoDB or an RDBMS by default. >>>> >>>> Which one is best suited for the Keycloak product? >>>> I am anticipating a user base of around 10000 users (mainly via >>>> Identity Brokering), will use offline tokens and use Keycloak as an >>>> Identity Broker for a SAML IdP. I am starting from a green field >>>> situation and do not have any restrictions on using a specific DB. >>>> >>>> I found a comment of Bill Birke on the Keycloak developer >>>> mailing-list, >>>> http://lists.jboss.org/pipermail/keycloak-dev/2015-July/004924.html, >>>> wishing he could drop Mongo and not seeing any advantages of using >>>> Mongo, but unfortunately the thread does not end with a >>>> conclusion/decision :-) >>>> >>>> What is the current position of the Keycloak team about using Mongo? >>> We added Mongo support very early (somewhen around 2013) as an >>> alternative >>> storage, which was at that time required by other project, which consumed >>> keycloak. The second project (Liveoak) is not under active development >>> anymore, but in the meantime, a lot of people started to use Keycloak >>> with >>> Mongo and it seems that some of them already in production. >>> >>> The advantage of Mongo is good performance and scalability. At some >>> point, >>> when I tested performance with bigger number of users, I saw much better >>> performance for Mongo then for MySQL. Also Mongo has support for DB >>> clustering and sharding (some RDBMS has it too AFAIK, but usually you >>> need >>> to pay for them, which is not the case with Mongo ;)) . On the other >>> hand, >>> biggest disadvantage of Mongo is missing support for transactions. So in >>> theory, if some error/bad situation happens, you can theoretically end >>> with >>> partially inconsistent data in DB. >>> >>> Marek >>>> >>>> In which scenario should I consider using MongoDB over an RDBMS or >>>> vice versa? There are off course the usual pro/con's between NoSQL and >>>> RDBMS, but I would like to know to what extend they hold true when it >>>> comes to using Keycloak in production or whether Keycloak is optimized >>>> specifically for NoSQL or RDBMS. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ton >>>>