11:39 a.m.
What is a difference between keycloak roles and usergroups ? are they
interchangeable i.e. can we use roles instead of groups or vice versa to
address a problem ? Is it possible to have roles within roles, just like
groups ?
A clear guidelines on how to use groups and roles will help.
thanks
/Vinay
7:58 a.m.
Hi Vinay,
From my experience, I'd tell that:
- roles are more likely
to reflect person's functions in the
organization;
- groups are more likely to reflect organizational structure.
For example, if there are offices and departments (like "NY Office",
"IT Department"), that would normally map to nested groups.
On the other hand, business functions would rather map to roles (like
"managers", "developers", "sysadmins" etc.)
There's also a number of technical differences:
- akin to nested groups, there are composite roles. However, the logic
is different: if you grant a composite role to a user, every child role
would be granted, too (which is not true for groups);
- you can assign a role to a group (not vice versa);
- by default, Keycloak adapters can restrict access based on roles
only. If you want to use groups for the same, you'll need to turn on
authorization services and create corresponding policies.
Could you please elaborate on your particular use case? If you describe
it briefly, I think we'll be able decide what's better for you.
Dmitry Telegin
CTO, Acutus s.r.o.
Keycloak Consulting and Training
Pod lipami street 339/52, 130 00 Prague 3, Czech Republic
+42 (022) 888-30-71
E-mail: info(a)acutus.pro
On Mon, 2018-07-09 at 12:39 -0400, Vinay wrote:
What is a difference between keycloak roles and usergroups ? are
they
interchangeable i.e. can we use roles instead of groups or vice versa
to
address a problem ? Is it possible to have roles within roles, just
like
groups ?
A clear guidelines on how to use groups and roles will help.
thanks
/Vinay
_______________________________________________
keycloak-user mailing list
keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
9:37 a.m.
Hi Dmitry,
do you know if there is any way to retrieve the group context of a role?
My use case would be that I have multiple sport clubs (group) with
multiple teams (subgroup)
-club1
--team1_1
--team1_2
-club2
--team2_1
--team2_1
I have for example the role COACH but of course this role makes only
sense in context of the team.
As far as I understand keycloak this is currently not possible
Kind Regards,
Max
Am 10.07.18 um 14:58 schrieb Dmitry Telegin:
Hi Vinay,
From my experience, I'd tell that:
- roles are more likely to reflect person's functions in the
organization;
- groups are more likely to reflect organizational structure.
For example, if there are offices and departments (like "NY Office",
"IT Department"), that would normally map to nested groups.
On the other hand, business functions would rather map to roles (like
"managers", "developers", "sysadmins" etc.)
There's also a number of technical differences:
- akin to nested groups, there are composite roles. However, the logic
is different: if you grant a composite role to a user, every child role
would be granted, too (which is not true for groups);
- you can assign a role to a group (not vice versa);
- by default, Keycloak adapters can restrict access based on roles
only. If you want to use groups for the same, you'll need to turn on
authorization services and create corresponding policies.
Could you please elaborate on your particular use case? If you describe
it briefly, I think we'll be able decide what's better for you.
Dmitry Telegin
CTO, Acutus s.r.o.
Keycloak Consulting and Training
Pod lipami street 339/52, 130 00 Prague 3, Czech Republic
+42 (022) 888-30-71
E-mail: info(a)acutus.pro
On Mon, 2018-07-09 at 12:39 -0400, Vinay wrote:
> What is a difference between keycloak roles and usergroups ? are they
> interchangeable i.e. can we use roles instead of groups or vice versa
> to
> address a problem ? Is it possible to have roles within roles, just
> like
> groups ?
> A clear guidelines on how to use groups and roles will help.
>
> thanks
> /Vinay
> _______________________________________________
> keycloak-user mailing list
> keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
_______________________________________________
keycloak-user mailing list
keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
8:18 p.m.
Hi Max,
On Thu, 2018-07-19 at 14:37 +0000, Max Bruchmann wrote:
Hi Dmitry,
do you know if there is any way to retrieve the group context of a
role?
Could you please elaborate on the "group context of a role"? In
Keycloak, roles are not related to groups (however a group can
reference roles to be automatically assigned to group members).
My use case would be that I have multiple sport clubs (group) with
multiple teams (subgroup)
-club1
--team1_1
--team1_2
-club2
--team2_1
--team2_1
I have for example the role COACH but of course this role makes only
sense in context of the team.
I agree with that, but what's the (bigger) problem you're trying to
solve?
I'd imagine that you want to grant coaches some privileged access to the players'
data; the coach should manage only the team he is assigned to. If that's what
you're trying to do, I'd suggest the following:
- create the "coach" role;
- grant this role to all coaches;
- put your coaches into the corresponding groups (teams);
- use fine-grained permissions to implement access rules (grant access to the players'
data if the requester has the "coach" role and belongs to the same group as the
player).
Hope it helps,
Dmitry Telegin
CTO, Acutus s.r.o.
Keycloak Consulting and Training
Pod lipami street 339/52, 130 00 Prague 3, Czech Republic
+42 (022) 888-30-71
E-mail: info(a)acutus.pro
As far as I understand keycloak this is currently not possible
Kind Regards,
Max
Am 10.07.18 um 14:58 schrieb Dmitry Telegin:
> Hi Vinay,
>
> From my experience, I'd tell that:
> - roles are more likely to reflect person's functions in the
> organization;
> - groups are more likely to reflect organizational structure.
>
> For example, if there are offices and departments (like "NY
> Office",
> "IT Department"), that would normally map to nested groups.
>
> On the other hand, business functions would rather map to roles
> (like
> "managers", "developers", "sysadmins" etc.)
>
> There's also a number of technical differences:
> - akin to nested groups, there are composite roles. However, the
> logic
> is different: if you grant a composite role to a user, every child
> role
> would be granted, too (which is not true for groups);
> - you can assign a role to a group (not vice versa);
> - by default, Keycloak adapters can restrict access based on roles
> only. If you want to use groups for the same, you'll need to turn
> on
> authorization services and create corresponding policies.
>
> Could you please elaborate on your particular use case? If you
> describe
> it briefly, I think we'll be able decide what's better for you.
>
> Dmitry Telegin
> CTO, Acutus s.r.o.
> Keycloak Consulting and Training
>
> Pod lipami street 339/52, 130 00 Prague 3, Czech Republic
> +42 (022) 888-30-71
> E-mail: info(a)acutus.pro
>
> On Mon, 2018-07-09 at 12:39 -0400, Vinay wrote:
> > What is a difference between keycloak roles and usergroups ? are
> > they
> > interchangeable i.e. can we use roles instead of groups or vice
> > versa
> > to
> > address a problem ? Is it possible to have roles within roles,
> > just
> > like
> > groups ?
> > A clear guidelines on how to use groups and roles will help.
> >
> > thanks
> > /Vinay
> > _______________________________________________
> > keycloak-user mailing list
> > keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
>
> _______________________________________________
> keycloak-user mailing list
> keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
_______________________________________________
keycloak-user mailing list
keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
4:06 a.m.
Hi Dmitry,
thank you for your reply
Keycloak, roles are not related to groups (however a group can
reference roles to be automatically assigned to group members).
Yes I just was not sure if I overlooked something here.
Regarding the fine grained approach. The problem would be that an User may be a PLAYER in
a certain team/group but a COACH in a different team/group.
I was thinking about creating roles like for example COACH@team1_1 and PLAYER@team_1_2. So
during the permission evaulation I could parse this information.
Unfortunatelly Keycloak has neither paging query support for Roles nor Groups and
therefore this approach currently would not scale as you may generate a few thousand
roles.
My current idea is that I handle this hierachical role concept in a custom application and
just use keycloak for authentication and global role management
Kind Regards,
Max
Am 23.07.18 um 03:18 schrieb Dmitry Telegin:
Hi Max,
On Thu, 2018-07-19 at 14:37 +0000, Max Bruchmann wrote:
> Hi Dmitry,
>
> do you know if there is any way to retrieve the group context of a
> role?
Could you please elaborate on the "group context of a role"? In
Keycloak, roles are not related to groups (however a group can
reference roles to be automatically assigned to group members).
> My use case would be that I have multiple sport clubs (group) with
> multiple teams (subgroup)
>
> -club1
>
> --team1_1
>
> --team1_2
>
> -club2
>
> --team2_1
>
> --team2_1
>
>
> I have for example the role COACH but of course this role makes only
> sense in context of the team.
I agree with that, but what's the (bigger) problem you're trying to
solve?
I'd imagine that you want to grant coaches some privileged access to the players'
data; the coach should manage only the team he is assigned to. If that's what
you're trying to do, I'd suggest the following:
- create the "coach" role;
- grant this role to all coaches;
- put your coaches into the corresponding groups (teams);
- use fine-grained permissions to implement access rules (grant access to the
players' data if the requester has the "coach" role and belongs to the same
group as the player).
Hope it helps,
Dmitry Telegin
CTO, Acutus s.r.o.
Keycloak Consulting and Training
Pod lipami street 339/52, 130 00 Prague 3, Czech Republic
+42 (022) 888-30-71
E-mail: info(a)acutus.pro
> As far as I understand keycloak this is currently not possible
>
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Max
>
>
> Am 10.07.18 um 14:58 schrieb Dmitry Telegin:
>> Hi Vinay,
>>
>> From my experience, I'd tell that:
>> - roles are more likely to reflect person's functions in the
>> organization;
>> - groups are more likely to reflect organizational structure.
>>
>> For example, if there are offices and departments (like "NY
>> Office",
>> "IT Department"), that would normally map to nested groups.
>>
>> On the other hand, business functions would rather map to roles
>> (like
>> "managers", "developers", "sysadmins" etc.)
>>
>> There's also a number of technical differences:
>> - akin to nested groups, there are composite roles. However, the
>> logic
>> is different: if you grant a composite role to a user, every child
>> role
>> would be granted, too (which is not true for groups);
>> - you can assign a role to a group (not vice versa);
>> - by default, Keycloak adapters can restrict access based on roles
>> only. If you want to use groups for the same, you'll need to turn
>> on
>> authorization services and create corresponding policies.
>>
>> Could you please elaborate on your particular use case? If you
>> describe
>> it briefly, I think we'll be able decide what's better for you.
>>
>> Dmitry Telegin
>> CTO, Acutus s.r.o.
>> Keycloak Consulting and Training
>>
>> Pod lipami street 339/52, 130 00 Prague 3, Czech Republic
>> +42 (022) 888-30-71
>> E-mail: info(a)acutus.pro
>>
>> On Mon, 2018-07-09 at 12:39 -0400, Vinay wrote:
>>> What is a difference between keycloak roles and usergroups ? are
>>> they
>>> interchangeable i.e. can we use roles instead of groups or vice
>>> versa
>>> to
>>> address a problem ? Is it possible to have roles within roles,
>>> just
>>> like
>>> groups ?
>>> A clear guidelines on how to use groups and roles will help.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> /Vinay
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> keycloak-user mailing list
>>> keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
>> _______________________________________________
>> keycloak-user mailing list
>> keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
>
> _______________________________________________
> keycloak-user mailing list
> keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
6:58 p.m.
Hi Max,
What about user attributes?
No matter which team/group the Coach is in, you can go to User > Attributes, and add a
multivalued attribute describing teams/groups this coach should have access to. (The
values should be separated with ##)
After that, you'll be able (hopefully :) to use this info in a JavaScript policy for
permission evaulation.
Cheers,
Dmitry
On Wed, 2018-07-25 at 09:06 +0000, Max Bruchmann wrote:
Hi Dmitry,
thank you for your reply
> Keycloak, roles are not related to groups (however a group can reference roles to be
automatically assigned to group members).
Yes I just was not sure if I overlooked something here.
Regarding the fine grained approach. The problem would be that an User may be a PLAYER in
a certain team/group but a COACH in a different team/group.
> > I was thinking about creating roles like for example COACH@team1_1 and
PLAYER@team_1_2. So during the permission evaulation I could parse this information.
Unfortunatelly Keycloak has neither paging query support for Roles nor Groups and
therefore this approach currently would not scale as you may generate a few thousand
roles.
My current idea is that I handle this hierachical role concept in a custom application
and just use keycloak for authentication and global role management
Kind Regards,
Max
Am 23.07.18 um 03:18 schrieb Dmitry Telegin:
> Hi Max,
>
> On Thu, 2018-07-19 at 14:37 +0000, Max Bruchmann wrote:
> > Hi Dmitry,
> >
> > do you know if there is any way to retrieve the group context of a
> > role?
>
> Could you please elaborate on the "group context of a role"? In
> Keycloak, roles are not related to groups (however a group can
> reference roles to be automatically assigned to group members).
>
> > My use case would be that I have multiple sport clubs (group) with
> > multiple teams (subgroup)
> >
> > -club1
> >
> > --team1_1
> >
> > --team1_2
> >
> > -club2
> >
> > --team2_1
> >
> > --team2_1
> >
> >
> > I have for example the role COACH but of course this role makes only
> > sense in context of the team.
>
> I agree with that, but what's the (bigger) problem you're trying to
> solve?
>
> I'd imagine that you want to grant coaches some privileged access to the
players' data; the coach should manage only the team he is assigned to. If that's
what you're trying to do, I'd suggest the following:
>
> - create the "coach" role;
> - grant this role to all coaches;
> - put your coaches into the corresponding groups (teams);
> - use fine-grained permissions to implement access rules (grant access to the
players' data if the requester has the "coach" role and belongs to the same
group as the player).
>
> Hope it helps,
> Dmitry Telegin
> CTO, Acutus s.r.o.
> Keycloak Consulting and Training
>
> Pod lipami street 339/52, 130 00 Prague 3, Czech Republic
> +42 (022) 888-30-71
> E-mail: info(a)acutus.pro
>
> > As far as I understand keycloak this is currently not possible
> >
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> >
> > Max
> >
> >
> > Am 10.07.18 um 14:58 schrieb Dmitry Telegin:
> > > Hi Vinay,
> > >
> > > From my experience, I'd tell that:
> > > - roles are more likely to reflect person's functions in the
> > > organization;
> > > - groups are more likely to reflect organizational structure.
> > >
> > > For example, if there are offices and departments (like "NY
> > > Office",
> > > "IT Department"), that would normally map to nested groups.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, business functions would rather map to roles
> > > (like
> > > "managers", "developers", "sysadmins" etc.)
> > >
> > > There's also a number of technical differences:
> > > - akin to nested groups, there are composite roles. However, the
> > > logic
> > > is different: if you grant a composite role to a user, every child
> > > role
> > > would be granted, too (which is not true for groups);
> > > - you can assign a role to a group (not vice versa);
> > > - by default, Keycloak adapters can restrict access based on roles
> > > only. If you want to use groups for the same, you'll need to turn
> > > on
> > > authorization services and create corresponding policies.
> > >
> > > Could you please elaborate on your particular use case? If you
> > > describe
> > > it briefly, I think we'll be able decide what's better for you.
> > >
> > > Dmitry Telegin
> > > CTO, Acutus s.r.o.
> > > Keycloak Consulting and Training
> > >
> > > Pod lipami street 339/52, 130 00 Prague 3, Czech Republic
> > > +42 (022) 888-30-71
> > > E-mail: info(a)acutus.pro
> > >
> > > On Mon, 2018-07-09 at 12:39 -0400, Vinay wrote:
> > > > What is a difference between keycloak roles and usergroups ? are
> > > > they
> > > > interchangeable i.e. can we use roles instead of groups or vice
> > > > versa
> > > > to
> > > > address a problem ? Is it possible to have roles within roles,
> > > > just
> > > > like
> > > > groups ?
> > > > A clear guidelines on how to use groups and roles will help.
> > > >
> > > > thanks
> > > > /Vinay
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > keycloak-user mailing list
> > > > keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
> > > > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > keycloak-user mailing list
> > > keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
> > > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > keycloak-user mailing list
> > keycloak-user(a)lists.jboss.org
> > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/keycloak-user
2484
days inactive
2500
days old
5 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
Dmitry Telegin -
Max Bruchmann -
Vinay