Forge at the Devoxx 2012 Hackergarten
by Dan Allen
As you may have seen, there will be a full-day hackergarten (hackfest /
workshop) at Devoxx 2012 [1]. I saw in the logs that you were discussing it
at the end of today's meeting. I'd definitely like to see the Forge project
represented there. It's a great opportunity for attendees to get hands on
with Forge and to get more people interested in contributing.
I'm looking for a few things:
- thumbs up that you want Forge involved
- a list of people that would like to be mentors (looking for 1 to 3 people)
To make the event successful you should perhaps create a wiki (or website)
page that has:
- a link to a setup guide so participants are ready to start hacking
- a list of ideas / goals to accomplish; the starter tasks are good for
this, or perhaps tutorials (to build experience)
As far as Forge is concerned, I think the focus of the event should be to
get people familiar with using Forge and either writing plugins (easier
goal) or hacking the core (more lofty goal).
Btw, the hackergarten is a good opportunity to give out mini-cards, buttons
or whatever else you have to distribute.
-Dan
[1] http://www.devoxx.com/display/DV12/2012/09/25/More+Space+and+Content
--
Dan Allen
Principal Software Engineer, Red Hat | Author of Seam in Action
Registered Linux User #231597
http://google.com/profiles/dan.j.allen
http://mojavelinux.com
http://mojavelinux.com/seaminaction
13 years, 11 months
JSR-107 (Caching API) plugin
by Dan Allen
At long last, JSR-107 is moving again and has a functional impl (as in it
runs). This would be a great candidate for a starter Forge plugin, if
someone is interested.
Aside from being a simple use case, the strategy here for Forge is that it
could become the recommended way to experiment with the spec as it matures
towards final draft, rather than developers messing with Maven Archetypes
or copy-paste.
Here's a nice short overview of the spec status from @myfear:
http://blog.eisele.net/2012/10/java-temporary-caching-api-test-driving.ht...
Red Hat is also on this spec EG if I'm not mistaken. Integration with CDI
will be happening soon (lots of design discussions about it have been long
underway).
-Dan
--
Sent from my CyanogenMod-powered
Android device, an open platform for
carriers, developers and consumers.
13 years, 12 months
Openshift plugin
by Rafael Benevides
Hi all,
After taking a deep dive on openshift plugin, I'm returning this to
discussion as asked by Pete. The intention is to get the idea of what
items the actual openshift plugin lacks of.
Pete and Lincoln talked about some of them in JavaOne here are some:
* support for embedding cartridges
* support for eap
* tail files
I also got those:
* setup when openshift application exists
* snapshot management ?
* key management ?
* alias management
* enable scaling on create app ?
* Use alternate openshift config file
* config port forward ?
So basically I want to get your opinion about what is important and what
is not and any other ideas and the priorities about all this items.
Thank you.
--
Rafael Benevides | Senior Software Engineer
Red Hat Brazil
+55-61-9269-6576
Better technology. Faster innovation. Powered by community collaboration.
See how it works at redhat.com
14 years
Re: [forge-dev] FSH
by Lincoln Baxter, III
Hmmm, there really is no documentation. It's a superset of MVEL with
integration into Forge itself. But we may not be continuing it in Forge
2.0... not sure yet. So I'm not sure I would spend too much time on it in
your presentation.
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:50 AM, Luca Masini <luca.masini(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Lincoln, forgive me if I'm an hammer in your head these days, but I
> really need your help.
>
> I want to describe FSH but I can't find anything in the documentation.
>
> I used it heavily but I want to be sure not to say incorrect statements.
>
> Thank you.
> L.
>
> --
> ****************************************
> http://www.lucamasini.net
> http://twitter.com/lmasini
> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/luca-masini/7/10/2b9
> ****************************************
>
--
Lincoln Baxter, III
http://ocpsoft.org
"Simpler is better."
14 years
Regarding Errai and JBoss Plugin
by Luca Masini
Hi guys, I'm writing this because this friday I'll talk about forge and
errai-plugin and I'm getting some trouble.
I try to synthesize in few words:
1) errai-plugin: the generated web.xml is is configured for jetty and
doesn't work on JBoss AS 7 (my presentation target) and I needed to remove
everything but the DefaultBlockingServlet mapping
2) errai-plugin: pom.xml reference a SNAPSHOT version of errai instead of
2.1.0.FINAL (I think this is due to the fact is a CR1)
3) errai-plugin: generated pom.xml has wrong version and a bad dependency
("org.jboss.weld.servlet:weld-se:1.1.6.Final" instead of
org.jboss.weld.servlet:weld-servlet:1.1.6.Final !)
4) errai-plugin: if I install CDI and then I install JAXRS the pom.xml is
modified but not the App.gwt.xml file !! Had to modify by hand (with
strange errors indeed)
5) jboss-plugin: here the fact is quite involved. I have many heap and perm
gen (on 64bit JVM) memory problems, so I looked for a way to configure
memory. I saw the plugin has a jvmArgs property but this is never read or
written. I had to modify it into the plugin itself.
6) eclipse forge plugin: there no way to increase memory for the forked
forge. Default memory is enough in all situation but when I deploy on JBoss
AS7, from time to time I receive OOM errors and I have to kill AS7 and
restart forge
Am I doing something wrong ?? Do you think I'm following a bad road for my
presentation ??
Thank you guys.
--
****************************************
http://www.lucamasini.net
http://twitter.com/lmasini
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/luca-masini/7/10/2b9
****************************************
14 years
Regarding the current JBoss Modules prototype of Forge 2.0
by Lincoln Baxter, III
I have spoken with David Lloyd about this, and he has provided me with some
additional information that leads me to believe that this is still a good
direction to pursue (certainly while we are doing side-by-side comparison
with OSGi)
1. All that is left to make this successful is module dependency management.
2. The greatest benefit is that we control the programming model, and don't
require any additional tools above what we already use.
3. We've found a way to run Forge from sources within Eclipse (without
extra IDE tools.)
The conversation is below, for others who are interested:
lincolnthree
> hey folks
> question about JBM and MSC
> who's around?
>
> 3:12
> dmlloyd
> the usual
>
> 3:14
> lincolnthree
> awesome
> So
> Question is:
> What exactly does MSC provide on top of JBM, and can it be used outside of
> AS7?
>
> 3:15
> dmlloyd
> nothing, the two are wholly independent
>
> 3:15
> lincolnthree
> Okay… so what does MSC provide?
>
> 3:15
> dmlloyd
> a concurrent dependency-based service container
> it starts and stops things
> not likely to be useful outside of the app server
>
> 3:16
> lincolnthree
> Why not?
> (Thinking Forge)
>
> 3:16
> dmlloyd
> because all an app server is, is services and management
> if you pull in services to your project, you're duplicating the app server
>
> 3:16
> lincolnthree
> Forge is just Plugins (services) and a UI layer of some sort
> And I'd hope I'm not duplicating the app-server, because I don't need 99%
> of what it delivers to users.
>
> 3:17
> dmlloyd
> are you saying you want to use MSC?
> it's not really a box to check - you'd only use it if you really need
> asynchronous concurrent service start/stop
>
> 3:18
> lincolnthree
> I'm saying I want to know if it would make any sense, and if it would
> address any of the problems currently being discussed by Forge
> I need to be able to install a plugin, have forge bring up other plugins
> that may depend on it
> stop a plugin
>
> 3:18
> dmlloyd
> also, AS8 will likely use a largely rewritten version of MSC that is
> transactional
>
> 3:18
> lincolnthree
> bring down all dependent plugins
>
> 3:18
> dmlloyd
> so 1.x has a limited future lifespan I would expect
>
> 3:18
> lincolnthree
> allow plugins to depend on other plugins
> in a modular environment
> (Which I have working right now via a naive proxy system and some dynamic
> module configuration)
> Basically I am comparing JBM & MSC to OSGi
> We are at a crossroads here
> of giving up JBM in favor of OSGi
>
> 3:19
> dmlloyd
> I wouldn't recommend that - OSGi is really shit
>
> 3:19
> lincolnthree
> And I need to know which path makes most technical sense for my project
>
> 3:20
> dmlloyd
> people keep blindly adopting it, and by the time it starts stabbing them
> in the back they have already convinced themselves that they're
> buzzword-compliant
> or whatever it is that causes people to use it
> it's like struts
> everyone used it even though it's complete shit
> mob psychology I guess
>
> 3:22
> lincolnthree
> so maybe you should be involved onthe forge dev list
> because the OSGi people are gaining momentum
>
> 3:23
> dmlloyd
> maybe, though my time is already limited
>
> 3:23
> lincolnthree
> And I'm listening because it sounds like it can address a lot of our
> problems (in combination with weld OSG
>
> 3:24
> dmlloyd
> I'm not going to sell these projects to you. I can only say that OSGi is
> a mistake that will cost you in the mid- to long-term, and let you make
> your own choice
>
> 3:24
> lincolnthree
> I can't make an educated choice because there is no documentation about
> the alternatives.
> Which is why I am here with you now.
>
> 3:24
> dmlloyd
> I'm not saying the MSC/Modules is a monolithic alternative either
> the two projects are associated by their usage in AS but they're by no
> means connected in any technical manner
>
> 3:25
> lincolnthree
> You are basically the single point of knowledge for JBM
> (Aside from a few others at JBoss and myself included I suppose at this
> point)
>
> 3:25
> dmlloyd
> I dunno, the docs spell out the basics pretty well I think
>
> 3:25
> lincolnthree
> Basics yes.
>
> 3:25
> dmlloyd
> modules is only basics
>
> 3:26
> lincolnthree
> But you're telling me "Don't use OSGi" without explaining an alternative
> to the service layer
> Which is why I'm asking about MSC.
>
> 3:26
> dmlloyd
> the alternative is to do something else
> even a simple start/stop with naive dependency queueing is probably better
> long-term
> just because you'll have control over it, instead of putting your faith in
> the genie
>
> 3:26
> lincolnthree
> Hm.
>
> 3:27
> dmlloyd
> MSC isn't a good long-term choice just because 2.x won't be compatible
> with 1.x
> it's really meant to be the innards of AS and that's about it
>
> 3:27
> lincolnthree
> Will MSC2 be any different?
>
> 3:27
> dmlloyd
> you could still use it as long as you don't make the API public though
> well as always I hope MSC2 will be "the one that sticks"
>
> 3:28
> lincolnthree
> The API for none of this will ever be public
>
> 3:28
> dmlloyd
> I think the odds are better, as we understand the requirements a lot
> better now that MSC 1 has been in the wild for a while
>
> 3:28
> lincolnthree
> No matter what we choose, the programming model that plugin developers
> will see is CDI
> With some annotations.
>
> 3:29
> dmlloyd
> it has (will have) the benefit of being transactional too, so you can
> "undo" whole multi-step operations
> MSC 1's chief problem is that you can't really know when it's "done" with
> some logical operation
> which is fine in an environment like AS5/6 where you just put deployments
> in as you go without any verification step of any sort
> and that's why it is the way it is
> but it turns out when you have a server control API like AS7 does, people
> want to know how their operations turned out, and revert them if stuff
> breaks
>
> 3:30
> lincolnthree
> Hm.
> Basically here's the problem I want to solve:
> Forge has plugins (services)
> Right now everyone has to re-invent anything because there's no way of
> accessing a service from Plugin A in Plugin B
> So there's no way to create building blocks, like unix applications
> I need Plugin A to be able to use and depend on Plugin B's exposed APIs
> And that sounds a lot like what OSGi provides
>
> 3:32
> dmlloyd
> well accessing their APIs is not the same as accessing their objects
>
> 3:32
> lincolnthree
> Explain
> I'll clarify
> Since API's are objects too
>
> 3:33
> dmlloyd
> only conceptually
> physically, APIs are classes
> if you want access to an API, modules can create class loading
> dependencies without any problems
>
> 3:33
> lincolnthree
> Plugin A has (MathService) - Plugin B uses (MathService from A)
>
> 3:34
> dmlloyd
> if you want to manage service lifecycle and manage injections and
> dependencies in that regard, MSC gives the low-level stuff to do that (we
> use it as the basis for Java EE injection for example)
>
> 3:34
> lincolnthree
> Yes.
>
> 3:35
> dmlloyd
> if you want real DI based on annotations and descriptors you need
> something fancier - and even CDI is pretty bumpy when it comes to DI
> between separate "modules" (not jboss modules, just regular modules in the
> EE/CDI sense)
> in an AS application for example users tend to use EE injection for that
>
> 3:35
> lincolnthree
> This si what I am doing right now:
>
> https://github.com/forge/core/tree/2.0/plugin-container/src/main/java/org...
> @Service and @Remote annotations control injections
> And you define your dependencies manually in a config file.
> Everything from Plugin A is explosed to Plugin B, if plugin B depends on
> Plugin A
> This could be more fine grained
> but for now that's how it works
>
> 3:38
> dmlloyd
> for class loading dependencies, that's probably fine
>
> 3:38
> lincolnthree
> But only @Services are injectable
>
> 3:38
> dmlloyd
> I've yet to see a user legitimately need fine-grained filtering in the
> real world
>
> 3:38
> lincolnthree
> into another weld container
> Each plugin has its own weld container
>
> 3:39
> dmlloyd
> sounds reasonable so far
>
> 3:39
> lincolnthree
> what actually gets injected is a proxy
> which is both lazily instantiated when the dependent service becomes
> avaialble, and also intercepts method calls which set the TCCL to the
> ClassLoader of the module from which the service was injected (and resets
> it on completion)
>
> 3:40
> dmlloyd
> sounds just like EJB
>
> 3:40
> lincolnthree
> lol, basically
> excepte i have no idea how EJBs really work
>
> 3:40
> dmlloyd
> you inject proxies
> they have interceptor stacks which do things like set TCCL
>
> 3:41
> lincolnthree
> now i feel "special"
> cool
> well… in the end, I guess what is really missing from this whole picture
> is the dependency management and lifecycle stuff
> bringing up dependencies in the right order, as needed
> because right now all the containers come up at the same time
>
> 3:42
> dmlloyd
> basically that problem boils down to: a service can start when all its
> dependencies are satisfied
> think of it as a counter
>
> 3:42
> lincolnthree
> and the proxies just "start working" as services come up
>
> 3:42
> dmlloyd
> the counter stores the number of unsatisfied dependencies
> when something finishes, it ticks the counters of all its dependents
> when those counters hit 0, that dependent can start
>
> 3:43
> lincolnthree
> right. makes sense
>
> 3:43
> dmlloyd
> that's basically all there is to it
> MSC takes this idea and goes nuts with it
>
> 3:43
> lincolnthree
> i kind of wonder how much more what I have actually needs
>
> 3:43
> dmlloyd
> makes everything concurrent, with injection, lots of modes like ON_DEMAND
> and so on, complex error handling
>
> 3:43
> lincolnthree
> ON_DEMAND would be nice
>
> 3:44
> dmlloyd
> MSC 2 will be simpler but also more complex
>
> 3:44
> lincolnthree
> I guess I could do that too
>
> 3:44
> dmlloyd
> simpler in that there are fewer states for a service, but more complex in
> that it's transactional
>
> 3:44
> lincolnthree
> not sure i really need transactional
>
> 3:44
> dmlloyd
> so you'd open a txn, add all your services (which in turn might add more
> services or do other things like stopping services), then prepare and if
> there are no errors, commit
>
> 3:45
> lincolnthree
> hm
>
> 3:45
> dmlloyd
> if there are errors, report and roll back
> 3:45
> jamezp
> Couldn't you use to rollback a failure to load a plugin lincolnthree?
>
> 3:45
> dmlloyd
> well, let's not go selling vaporware just yet
>
> 3:45
> lincolnthree
> jamezp: well… what happens is the plugin just doesn't load
>
> 3:45
> dmlloyd
> I still don't actually have a working prototype
>
> 3:45
> lincolnthree
> nothing else blows up
> unless it depends on that plugin
>
> 3:46
> dmlloyd
> but, I need one within about two weeks, so...
>
> 3:46
> jamezp
> has faith in dmlloyd
>
> 3:46
> lincolnthree
> but if it does, then i assume if I get this all wrking, the dependency
> would also not come up
>
> 3:48
> dmlloyd
> yeah dependents as a rule will just sit there until their dependencies
> appear
> in AS5/6, you'd just remove broken stuff and put in the right stuff and it
> would (hopefully) all fix itself
> that's the MSC 1 "way"
> in MSC 1, things actually *do* fix themselves once you correct dependency
> issues
> also you can "poke" failed services to make them try again
> like if there's a port binding conflict, something you can fix manually
>
> 3:50
> lincolnthree
> interesting
> one downside of JBM is that I can't run it from an eclipse launch very
> easily
> because the module path needs to be configured
> module library, etc
> which is of course, sensible
>
> 3:51
> dmlloyd
> well, yes and no
>
> 3:51
> jamezp
> Sounds like you need a plugin for that
>
> 3:51
> dmlloyd
> you could for example have a flat-classpath application which uses jboss
> modules
> one of the things I'm doing for modules 1.2 is making it more friendly for
> this kind of thing (a lot of bootstrappy stuff happens in main() and it
> should be factored out)
> but iirc it's possible to do
> iow you use modules for your loaded plugins and a flat classpath for the
> static stuff
> mainly I'm working on that to make testing easier, but it probably applies
> here too
>
> 3:53
> lincolnthree
> that would be really nice
> any idea when that might happen?
> that would make forge development a LOT easier
>
> 3:53
> dmlloyd
> it should already be possible just by using it
> you might have to hack around a quirk or two though
> won't know for sure until it happens
>
> 3:55
> lincolnthree
> hm.
> Interesting… So then I would need to
> supply a module library as an argument to JBM when I started it from my
> class
> and basically just call JBM main from some other class?
> But then JBM would also need a main method to invoke ?
> How would I get a handle to the BootLoader
> Lots of questions
> I don't have a clear picture of that in my mind
> Well. I'll come back to that later
> thanks for your thoughts dmlloyd
>
> 4:05
> dmlloyd
> JBM doesn't need a main method
> think of it as a class loader factory
>
> 4:05
> lincolnthree
> Ahhhh …. interesting
>
> 4:05
> dmlloyd
> you just call reflectively in to whatever module when it's ready
> like ServiceLoader does, or whatever
>
> 4:05
> lincolnthree
> I think the last time I looked at it … you couldn't do that
> What's the starting API for which I need to use that kind of functionality?
> the entry point to start exploring
>
> 4:06
> dmlloyd
> just create a ModuleLoader
> that's really the starting point of the API
>
> 4:06
> lincolnthree
> Huh.
> But in this case I would have no SystemModuleLoader, right?
>
> 4:06
> dmlloyd
> it's just that by default jboss-modules.jar creates one for you
> well, all module loaders can have a system dependency
> SystemModuleLoader isn't really a "thing"
> you wno't have that initial filesystem-backed one though, no
>
> 4:17
> lincolnthree
> Huh… go figure.
> ModuleLoader addonLoader = new AddonModuleLoader();
> That's all it takes.
> So Forge itself has a flat classpath when it is loaded
> but the modules themselves do not
> the addons
> interesting
> I guess that's the concept?
> For some reason I had it in my head that you would need to be running in a
> modular environment for ModuleLoader to work
> that makes things about 500x easier
> if it is true
>
> 4:24
> dmlloyd
> I'd certainly love for everyone to run in a modular environment, but I
> recognize that it isn't always possible
> but yeah that's the gist of it
>
> 4:25
> lincolnthree
> nice
> im trying this right now
> a few more hacks to make
> but i think this could be the lynch-pin to OSGi
> 4:25
> alesj left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving.).
> 4:27
> alesj [~alesj@redhat/jboss/alesj] entered the room.
> 4:27
> mode (+v alesj) by ChanServ
>
> 4:27
> lincolnthree
> also would simplify the build greatly
> removing the need for modules assembly
> well i'll be...
> looks like it should work
> gonna have to ruminate on this
> thanks dmlloyd
> question though
>
> 4:31
> dmlloyd
> np
> go ahead
>
> 4:31
> lincolnthree
> will loaded modules also have exposure to what is on the classpath? I
> assume yes?
>
> 4:32
> dmlloyd
> yes, with the qualification that you'll have to add a dependency for that
> purpose
>
> 4:32
> lincolnthree
> or are subsequent loaded modules still truly isolated?
>
> 4:32
> dmlloyd
> since that dependency needs a comprehensive package list, you'll have to
> iterate the class path to assemble that information
>
> 4:32
> lincolnthree
> okay, so they are still isolated unless you add… what, the system
> dependencies module?
>
> 4:33
> dmlloyd
> they're isolated unless you add a system dependency - it's a dep type, not
> a module
>
> 4:33
> lincolnthree
> right
>
> 4:33
> dmlloyd
> even then you have to list the packages you want to be visible
> so if isolation by default is your goal, that's probably a good thing
> if you want the whole classpath exposed then like I said you have to
> resort to a dirty trick to do it
>
> 4:34
> lincolnthree
> I don't
> I just want what is currently done by JBM when including the system module
>
> 4:34
> dmlloyd
> though there's a different sort of dirty trick that you can do which we
> don't use much: "fallback" dependencies
>
> 4:34
> lincolnthree
> which i imagine means replacing the module.xml with some programatic stuff
>
> 4:34
> dmlloyd
> are you using 1.0.x?
> system module has been gone since 1.1.0
> replaced with system dep type
>
> 4:35
> lincolnthree
> checking..
> 1.1.3.GA
>
> 4:36
> dmlloyd
> okay then a system dependency is identical between XML and programmatic API
> basically you list the packages you wanty
>
> 4:36
> lincolnthree
> javax.api module.xml:
>
> <path name="javax/accessibility" />
> <path name="javax/activity" />
> <path name="javax/crypto" />
> <path name="javax/crypto/interfaces" />
> so just build that
>
> 4:36
> dmlloyd
> ("java." is always available though, as is "sun.reflect.")
> right
>
> 4:36
> lincolnthree
> got it
> it's only 115 paths
> no problem
> nothing a little VI can't solve
>
>
--
Lincoln Baxter, III
http://ocpsoft.org
"Simpler is better."
14 years
