1:35 p.m.
http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/12/spring30#view_51440
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
2:24 p.m.
Gavin,
One thing to add to your comment is that they have done nothing to Spring
Webflow, which on the cover, promises the scopes/context that Seam 2
delivered (primarily the conversation scope). I had the misfortune of being
forced to use the Spring stack on one of my engagements, after having great
success with Seam on another project. I can't explain how harrowing of an
effort it was to get Webflow working even remotely like Seam (in Webflow all
conversation scoped beans had to be manually defined in the xml). And the
docs - yes there are some, but extremely minuscule for JSF integration and
absolutely NO mention of necessary JSF 1.2 configuration, which I had to
figure out on my own.
I also had to make it work with Spring Security - this one is clunky and
difficult to set up, no to mention buggy. Yes, the security was bumped to
3.0.0 and aligned with JSR-250, but where in the world are the docs?! There
aren't any for 3.0, and the ones for 2.x aren't any better than the ones for
Webflow.
As a software architect who often gets to decide the technology stack (but
sometimes gets overruled :( ), I look for a complete *ecosystem* for the
application I'm designing, not just individual pieces with big promises. I
need stuff that works, works well, and works together. Not only that, I look
for something simple, maintainable and maintained by a strong community. And
my measure of strong community is the quality of documentation and access to
knowledgeable resources, without support contracts.
This is where Spring falls entire short of its promises, yet again. So my
time and money are with CDI and Seam.
Thanks for your advocacy and hard work!
Piotr
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/12/spring30#view_51440
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
_______________________________________________
weld-dev mailing list
weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
2:36 p.m.
I'll try and chime in...
Cheers,
Reza
Gavin King wrote:
2:39 p.m.
Piotr,
Please consider posting your comments on InfoQ...it would help a greater
number of developers see past the Spring FUD...
Cheers,
Reza
Piotr Steininger wrote:
Gavin,
One thing to add to your comment is that they have done nothing to
Spring Webflow, which on the cover, promises the scopes/context that
Seam 2 delivered (primarily the conversation scope). I had the
misfortune of being forced to use the Spring stack on one of my
engagements, after having great success with Seam on another project.
I can't explain how harrowing of an effort it was to get Webflow
working even remotely like Seam (in Webflow all conversation scoped
beans had to be manually defined in the xml). And the docs - yes there
are some, but extremely minuscule for JSF integration and absolutely
NO mention of necessary JSF 1.2 configuration, which I had to figure
out on my own.
I also had to make it work with Spring Security - this one is clunky
and difficult to set up, no to mention buggy. Yes, the security was
bumped to 3.0.0 and aligned with JSR-250, but where in the world are
the docs?! There aren't any for 3.0, and the ones for 2.x aren't any
better than the ones for Webflow.
As a software architect who often gets to decide the technology stack
(but sometimes gets overruled :( ), I look for a complete /ecosystem/
for the application I'm designing, not just individual pieces with big
promises. I need stuff that works, works well, and works together. Not
only that, I look for something simple, maintainable and maintained by
a strong community. And my measure of strong community is the quality
of documentation and access to knowledgeable resources, without
support contracts.
This is where Spring falls entire short of its promises, yet again. So
my time and money are with CDI and Seam.
Thanks for your advocacy and hard work!
Piotr
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com
<mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com>> wrote:
http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/12/spring30#view_51440
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com>
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
_______________________________________________
weld-dev mailing list
weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org <mailto:weld-dev@lists.jboss.org>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
weld-dev mailing list
weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
11:25 p.m.
I am still a bit on the fence about campaigning against Spring. I think
there is far more to be gained from promoting CDI, Weld Extension, Seam 3
and the EE 6 profile (with positive messages), than jumping into a debate
with gung-ho Spring believers. From what I saw in my consulting engagements
people who used Spring for a while are stuck in a specific mindset of
application development. For them anything beyond singleton bean wiring on
app startup does not exist or is too mysterious or scary. Yes, it does sound
funny, but I once had the same mindset, but I saw the light ;). I converted
to Seam thanks to so many examples and great books like Dan's Seam in
Action.
So if our goal is to entice the "not-yet-lost" souls, then we have to send
more messages that are pro-Weld, and not necessarily against Spring. How to
do it? In a few ways. First, excellent and exhaustive documentation. I think
Gavin, Pete, Dan and the community has done an awesome job in that arena,
and have set a golden standard. Second - example projects. I think nothing
shows the prowess of a technology stack than a real proof that it works,
works well, integrates with other key technologies (JSF2, JPA, BPM, etc),
which are part of the Enterprise application ecosystem. These examples
though need to go above and beyond the simple ones already out there (we
need the simple ones too) - something along the lines of the Photo Album for
RichFaces. Third, tutorials, articles and blog posts detailing the
aforementioned examples - in another words - creating the hype and
excitement about the CDI's programming model, and the ease of creating
powerful apps in an elegant and concise way.
But at this point, there are still a number of important pieces missing,
like the Weld extensions and Seam 3 modules, which provide integration with
key technologies for business apps (i.e. BPM or Security) or complement
these technologies. These are needed to create the example projects, which
are essential as the meat of the article to be written about Weld and Seam.
My key goal is to build an enthusiastic community around CDI, rather than go
after Spring. I think Gavin has a better handle on disproving any allegation
against CDI or anything bogus about Spring. I simply don't have the
technical know-how, just an implementer experience.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Reza Rahman <reza_rahman(a)lycos.com> wrote:
Piotr,
Please consider posting your comments on InfoQ...it would help a greater
number of developers see past the Spring FUD...
Cheers,
Reza
Piotr Steininger wrote:
> Gavin,
>
> One thing to add to your comment is that they have done nothing to Spring
> Webflow, which on the cover, promises the scopes/context that Seam 2
> delivered (primarily the conversation scope). I had the misfortune of being
> forced to use the Spring stack on one of my engagements, after having great
> success with Seam on another project. I can't explain how harrowing of an
> effort it was to get Webflow working even remotely like Seam (in Webflow all
> conversation scoped beans had to be manually defined in the xml). And the
> docs - yes there are some, but extremely minuscule for JSF integration and
> absolutely NO mention of necessary JSF 1.2 configuration, which I had to
> figure out on my own.
>
> I also had to make it work with Spring Security - this one is clunky and
> difficult to set up, no to mention buggy. Yes, the security was bumped to
> 3.0.0 and aligned with JSR-250, but where in the world are the docs?! There
> aren't any for 3.0, and the ones for 2.x aren't any better than the ones for
> Webflow.
>
> As a software architect who often gets to decide the technology stack (but
> sometimes gets overruled :( ), I look for a complete /ecosystem/ for the
> application I'm designing, not just individual pieces with big promises. I
> need stuff that works, works well, and works together. Not only that, I look
> for something simple, maintainable and maintained by a strong community. And
> my measure of strong community is the quality of documentation and access to
> knowledgeable resources, without support contracts.
>
> This is where Spring falls entire short of its promises, yet again. So my
> time and money are with CDI and Seam.
>
> Thanks for your advocacy and hard work!
>
> Piotr
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com<mailto:
> gavin.king(a)gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/12/spring30#view_51440
>
> --
> Gavin King
> gavin.king(a)gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com>
>
> http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
> http://hibernate.org
> http://seamframework.org
> _______________________________________________
> weld-dev mailing list
> weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org <mailto:weld-dev@lists.jboss.org>
>
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> weld-dev mailing list
> weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
>
11:35 p.m.
Piotr,
Understood, no problem. As I see it, a little bit of both is needed. If
no one points out what really is wrong with Spring, no one seems to
realize it and is quite complacent with it's shortcomings. That being
said, I agree negative campaigning just for the sake of stirring trouble
is inane.
Cheers,
Reza
Piotr Steininger wrote:
I am still a bit on the fence about campaigning against Spring. I
think there is far more to be gained from promoting CDI, Weld
Extension, Seam 3 and the EE 6 profile (with positive messages), than
jumping into a debate with gung-ho Spring believers. From what I saw
in my consulting engagements people who used Spring for a while are
stuck in a specific mindset of application development. For them
anything beyond singleton bean wiring on app startup does not exist or
is too mysterious or scary. Yes, it does sound funny, but I once had
the same mindset, but I saw the light ;). I converted to Seam thanks
to so many examples and great books like Dan's Seam in Action.
So if our goal is to entice the "not-yet-lost" souls, then we have to
send more messages that are pro-Weld, and not necessarily against
Spring. How to do it? In a few ways. First, excellent and exhaustive
documentation. I think Gavin, Pete, Dan and the community has done an
awesome job in that arena, and have set a golden standard. Second -
example projects. I think nothing shows the prowess of a technology
stack than a real proof that it works, works well, integrates with
other key technologies (JSF2, JPA, BPM, etc), which are part of the
Enterprise application ecosystem. These examples though need to go
above and beyond the simple ones already out there (we need the simple
ones too) - something along the lines of the Photo Album for
RichFaces. Third, tutorials, articles and blog posts detailing the
aforementioned examples - in another words - creating the hype and
excitement about the CDI's programming model, and the ease of creating
powerful apps in an elegant and concise way.
But at this point, there are still a number of important pieces
missing, like the Weld extensions and Seam 3 modules, which provide
integration with key technologies for business apps (i.e. BPM or
Security) or complement these technologies. These are needed to create
the example projects, which are essential as the meat of the article
to be written about Weld and Seam.
My key goal is to build an enthusiastic community around CDI, rather
than go after Spring. I think Gavin has a better handle on disproving
any allegation against CDI or anything bogus about Spring. I simply
don't have the technical know-how, just an implementer experience.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Reza Rahman <reza_rahman(a)lycos.com
<mailto:reza_rahman@lycos.com>> wrote:
Piotr,
Please consider posting your comments on InfoQ...it would help a
greater number of developers see past the Spring FUD...
Cheers,
Reza
Piotr Steininger wrote:
Gavin,
One thing to add to your comment is that they have done
nothing to Spring Webflow, which on the cover, promises the
scopes/context that Seam 2 delivered (primarily the
conversation scope). I had the misfortune of being forced to
use the Spring stack on one of my engagements, after having
great success with Seam on another project. I can't explain
how harrowing of an effort it was to get Webflow working even
remotely like Seam (in Webflow all conversation scoped beans
had to be manually defined in the xml). And the docs - yes
there are some, but extremely minuscule for JSF integration
and absolutely NO mention of necessary JSF 1.2 configuration,
which I had to figure out on my own.
I also had to make it work with Spring Security - this one is
clunky and difficult to set up, no to mention buggy. Yes, the
security was bumped to 3.0.0 and aligned with JSR-250, but
where in the world are the docs?! There ar en't any for 3.0,
and the ones for 2.x aren't any better than the ones for Webflow.
As a software architect who often gets to decide the
technology stack (but sometimes gets overruled :( ), I look
for a complete /ecosystem/ for the application I'm designing,
not just individual pieces with big promises. I need stuff
that works, works well, and works together. Not only that, I
look for something simple, maintainable and maintained by a
strong community. And my measure of strong community is the
quality of documentation and ac cess to knowledgeable
resources, without support contracts.
This is where Spring falls entire short of its promises, yet
again. So my time and money are with CDI and Seam.
Thanks for your advocacy and hard work!
Piotr
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Gavin King
<gavin.king(a)gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com>
<mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com>>>
wrote:
http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/12/spring30#view_51440
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com>
<mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com>>
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
_______________________________________________
weld-dev mailing list
weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org <mailto:weld-dev@lists.jboss.org>
<mailto:weld-dev@lists.jboss.org
<mailto:weld-dev@lists.jboss.org>>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
weld-dev mailing list
weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org <mailto:weld-dev@lists.jboss.org>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
12:33 a.m.
Well said, Piotr, we certainly should be spending our time explaining
our own technology. Negative posts turn people off. I do go negative
from time to time, because, frankly, sometimes it's the only way to
put both sides of the story out there for people, but I certainly try
to spend my time obsessing about our stuff, not about competing
projects. We should definitely try to stay out of flame wars.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Piotr Steininger
<piotr.steininger(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I am still a bit on the fence about campaigning against Spring. I
think
there is far more to be gained from promoting CDI, Weld Extension, Seam 3
and the EE 6 profile (with positive messages), than jumping into a debate
with gung-ho Spring believers. From what I saw in my consulting engagements
people who used Spring for a while are stuck in a specific mindset of
application development. For them anything beyond singleton bean wiring on
app startup does not exist or is too mysterious or scary. Yes, it does sound
funny, but I once had the same mindset, but I saw the light ;). I converted
to Seam thanks to so many examples and great books like Dan's Seam in
Action.
So if our goal is to entice the "not-yet-lost" souls, then we have to send
more messages that are pro-Weld, and not necessarily against Spring. How to
do it? In a few ways. First, excellent and exhaustive documentation. I think
Gavin, Pete, Dan and the community has done an awesome job in that arena,
and have set a golden standard. Second - example projects. I think nothing
shows the prowess of a technology stack than a real proof that it works,
works well, integrates with other key technologies (JSF2, JPA, BPM, etc),
which are part of the Enterprise application ecosystem. These examples
though need to go above and beyond the simple ones already out there (we
need the simple ones too) - something along the lines of the Photo Album for
RichFaces. Third, tutorials, articles and blog posts detailing the
aforementioned examples - in another words - creating the hype and
excitement about the CDI's programming model, and the ease of creating
powerful apps in an elegant and concise way.
But at this point, there are still a number of important pieces missing,
like the Weld extensions and Seam 3 modules, which provide integration with
key technologies for business apps (i.e. BPM or Security) or complement
these technologies. These are needed to create the example projects, which
are essential as the meat of the article to be written about Weld and Seam.
My key goal is to build an enthusiastic community around CDI, rather than go
after Spring. I think Gavin has a better handle on disproving any allegation
against CDI or anything bogus about Spring. I simply don't have the
technical know-how, just an implementer experience.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Reza Rahman <reza_rahman(a)lycos.com> wrote:
>
> Piotr,
>
> Please consider posting your comments on InfoQ...it would help a greater
> number of developers see past the Spring FUD...
>
> Cheers,
> Reza
>
>
> Piotr Steininger wrote:
>>
>> Gavin,
>>
>> One thing to add to your comment is that they have done nothing to Spring
>> Webflow, which on the cover, promises the scopes/context that Seam 2
>> delivered (primarily the conversation scope). I had the misfortune of being
>> forced to use the Spring stack on one of my engagements, after having great
>> success with Seam on another project. I can't explain how harrowing of an
>> effort it was to get Webflow working even remotely like Seam (in Webflow all
>> conversation scoped beans had to be manually defined in the xml). And the
>> docs - yes there are some, but extremely minuscule for JSF integration and
>> absolutely NO mention of necessary JSF 1.2 configuration, which I had to
>> figure out on my own.
>>
>> I also had to make it work with Spring Security - this one is clunky and
>> difficult to set up, no to mention buggy. Yes, the security was bumped to
>> 3.0.0 and aligned with JSR-250, but where in the world are the docs?! There
>> aren't any for 3.0, and the ones for 2.x aren't any better than the ones
for
>> Webflow.
>>
>> As a software architect who often gets to decide the technology stack
>> (but sometimes gets overruled :( ), I look for a complete /ecosystem/ for
>> the application I'm designing, not just individual pieces with big promises.
>> I need stuff that works, works well, and works together. Not only that, I
>> look for something simple, maintainable and maintained by a strong
>> community. And my measure of strong community is the quality of
>> documentation and access to knowledgeable resources, without support
>> contracts.
>>
>> This is where Spring falls entire short of its promises, yet again. So my
>> time and money are with CDI and Seam.
>>
>> Thanks for your advocacy and hard work!
>>
>> Piotr
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 2:35 PM, Gavin King <gavin.king(a)gmail.com
>> <mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.infoq.com/news/2009/12/spring30#view_51440
>>
>> --
>> Gavin King
>> gavin.king(a)gmail.com <mailto:gavin.king@gmail.com>
>> http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
>> http://hibernate.org
>> http://seamframework.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> weld-dev mailing list
>> weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org <mailto:weld-dev@lists.jboss.org>
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> weld-dev mailing list
>> weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
>
_______________________________________________
weld-dev mailing list
weld-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/weld-dev
--
Gavin King
gavin.king(a)gmail.com
http://in.relation.to/Bloggers/Gavin
http://hibernate.org
http://seamframework.org
1:41 a.m.
Gavin,
Just so you understand, I don't see any problems with someone in your
(or perhaps my or Dan's or Pete's, etc) position to express an opinion
on Spring or just about any other tool. Rod & Company do that about Java
EE routinely, often unsolicited. I don't think that's "going negative",
merely sharing your views on matters relevant to the community as
someone with something valuable to share. And I don't think you need to
be a "Spring expert" to do it. Let's face it, Rod & Company are hardly
"Java EE experts". I could write a small booklet on the number of
innacuracies about Java EE that most Spring documentation has, for
example (including Rod's book which shocked me when I first read it and
inspired me to write EJB 3 in Action).
All that being said, I agree aimlessly picking fights is a dumb waste of
time. The key for me is intent (the reason why you would do something),
conduct (how you do it) and fairness (treating all parties justly), not
merely robotically staying away from or actively saying/doing X or Y.
Cheers and Happy New Year,
Reza
Gavin King wrote:
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Reza Rahman