Am 24.02.2014 um 14:59 schrieb Tomaž Cerar <tomaz.cerar(a)gmail.com&gt;: > Hey guys, > > I was just discussing with Harald could get distro size down by 25+MB if we would trim our console a bit. > > Currently we compile console with 40 permutations, six browsers (ie6,ie8,ie9,gecko1_8,safari) and eight languages (en,de,es,fr,pt_BR,zh_Hans,ja,ko). > > I think we could drop support for ie6 and get rid of extra localization with support only EN. > IE6 market share is so low this days that it really does not make sense to support it in upstream anymore. > Also we don't ship localization of logging messages/exceptions in WildFy anyway, so why have just one part localized. > > This way we would get down to 4 permutations and our console distro would be 6.8Mb instead of current 32,3Mb > > Also if people want extra localization, they could always just download full console release and replace that with jar we ship. > > So what do you guys think? Fully agreed. Besides the reduced distribution size, this would save me 20 minutes lifetime / per full build ;-) .: Harald > > -- > tomaz > > > > _______________________________________________ > wildfly-dev mailing list > wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev --- Harald Pehl JBoss by Red Hat http://hpehl.info _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

Am 24.02.2014 um 15:59 schrieb Bill Burke <bburke(a)redhat.com&gt;: > is an admin console for admins, not a user application made for your > grandma who's using the same old computer and OS version you bought her Actually that is the real problem - it is for admins, that are not allowed to use a modern browser because central IT invested X money in to certifying it with whatever ridiculous internal stuff they came up with. They do not want to re-certify with FFn+1 every 3 weeks because no one will pay them.

Grand ma on the opposite just needs to call their kids^w local tech support to get an update installed.

On 2/24/14, 10:28 AM, Bill Burke wrote: Are you saying drop IE8 as well? IE 9 came out in March 2011.

On 2/24/14, 10:50 AM, Bill Burke wrote: > > > On 2/24/2014 11:43 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote: >> On 2/24/14, 10:28 AM, Bill Burke wrote: >> Are you saying drop IE8 as well? IE 9 came out in March 2011. >> > > I'm saying, I don't know. What is a reasonable cut-off? Browsers older > than 2 years, 4 years, 6? > > I vote 4, but reserve the right to change my vote once I hear how much keeping IE8 costs. When you get down to 2 years you start having a pretty good chance of annoying people. I'd rather we focus our energy on improving ways to let people who care get the right size dist for their needs before we start annoying users of the standard dist.

On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 9:17 PM, Darran Lofthouse <darran.lofthouse(a)jboss.com&gt; wrote: If we minimised the supported combinations in the default WildFly ditribution couldn't we provide some instructions on how to build and replace the console for the users that need more? Or is there something else I am missing? That was part of initial idea, either provide instructions how to build it, or maybe even have "full" console jar published in maven repo.

-- tomaz _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

On 2/24/14, 10:28 AM, Bill Burke wrote: > > > On 2/24/2014 11:10 AM, Heiko W.Rupp wrote: >> >> Am 24.02.2014 um 15:59 schrieb Bill Burke <bburke(a)redhat.com&gt;: >> >>> is an admin console for admins, not a user application made for your >>> grandma who's using the same old computer and OS version you bought her >> >> Actually that is the real problem - it is for admins, that are not allowed to use >> a modern browser because central IT invested X money in to certifying it with >> whatever ridiculous internal stuff they came up with. They do not want to >> re-certify with FFn+1 every 3 weeks because no one will pay them. >> > > Obviously you don't want to require support for the latest and greatest > every 3 weeks version, hence "relatively modern". "Relatively modern" > being, I don't know, browsers from 2010? or even 2012? Wouldn't they > have this same certification headache with Java 7 or Java 8? > >> Grand ma on the opposite just needs to call their kids^w local tech support >> to get an update installed. >> > > No, grandma wouldn't even make the connection that she needed to update > her browser. She just wouldn't go to that website anymore. > > FYI, I'm not trying to hijack this thread. Just trying to get input. > Are you saying drop IE8 as well? IE 9 came out in March 2011. Browser geeks: if gecko1_8 was dropped, what's the earliest Firefox we'd support?

I think Tomaz's proposal to drop IE 6 is a no-brainer.

-- Brian Stansberry Senior Principal Software Engineer JBoss by Red Hat _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

I'm asking because that's the approach we took with the Keycloak admin console. Our user facing screens must be compatible with old browsers where our admin console can rely on relatively modern Javascript APIs and HTML support. Is this a bad approach to take?

And that is why I'll never understand why GWT was chosen. Tristan On 24/02/2014 15:06, Harald Pehl wrote: > Am 24.02.2014 um 14:59 schrieb Tomaž Cerar <tomaz.cerar(a)gmail.com&gt;: > >> Hey guys, >> >> I was just discussing with Harald could get distro size down by 25+MB if we would trim our console a bit. >> >> Currently we compile console with 40 permutations, six browsers (ie6,ie8,ie9,gecko1_8,safari) and eight languages (en,de,es,fr,pt_BR,zh_Hans,ja,ko). >> >> I think we could drop support for ie6 and get rid of extra localization with support only EN. >> IE6 market share is so low this days that it really does not make sense to support it in upstream anymore. >> Also we don't ship localization of logging messages/exceptions in WildFy anyway, so why have just one part localized. >> >> This way we would get down to 4 permutations and our console distro would be 6.8Mb instead of current 32,3Mb >> >> Also if people want extra localization, they could always just download full console release and replace that with jar we ship. >> >> So what do you guys think? > Fully agreed. Besides the reduced distribution size, this would save me 20 minutes lifetime / per full build ;-) > > .: Harald > >> -- >> tomaz >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> wildfly-dev mailing list >> wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev > --- > Harald Pehl > JBoss by Red Hat > http://hpehl.info > > > _______________________________________________ > wildfly-dev mailing list > wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev > > _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

Please refer back to the 20 million past threads that explain why it was chosen, and why it is still a good choice. If you still disagree and still want to criticize it, then please include a reasonable well researched proposal for an alternative technology, and a reasonable action plan and timeline for how we get there. Thanks On Feb 24, 2014, at 11:07 AM, Tristan Tarrant <ttarrant(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: > And that is why I'll never understand why GWT was chosen. > > Tristan > >

I'm hoping that it won't be long before the web console is a separate download that merely connects to WildFly/EAP. At that point we would not ship web console with the server and this won't really matter any more.

That's probably a good thing but we would need to explain why the EAP download is so much larger.

Also note that localization is not just for logging messages and exceptions. Some DMR operations are localized too and presumably the result does show up in the web console UI.

That might be fine for WildFly, but additional downloads is an anti-requirement for EAP.

On 2/24/14, 2:55 PM, John Doyle wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I'm hoping that it won't be long before the web console is a > separate download that merely connects to WildFly/EAP. At that > point we would not ship web console with the server and this won't > really matter any more. > > That might be fine for WildFly, but additional downloads is an > anti-requirement for EAP. IMO it would be an anti-requirement for the main distribution of WF as well -- the one where you download a zip and unzip it to get a full EE appserver. But it could be common in other ways we distribute.

> > > I assume that if we do trim the console, it will be for WildFly > only? That's probably a good thing but we would need to explain why > the EAP download is so much larger. > > Also note that localization is not just for logging messages and > exceptions. Some DMR operations are localized too and presumably > the result does show up in the web console UI. > > Stan > > On 2/24/2014 8:59 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote: > > Hey guys, > > I was just discussing with Harald could get distro size down by > 25+MB if we would trim our console a bit. > > Currently we compile console with 40 permutations, six browsers > (ie6,ie8,ie9,gecko1_8,safari) and eight languages > (en,de,es,fr,pt_BR,zh_Hans,ja,ko). > > I think we could drop support for ie6 and get rid of extra > localization with support only EN. > IE6 market share is so low this days that it really does not > make sense to support it in upstream anymore. > Also we don't ship localization of logging messages/exceptions > in WildFy anyway, so why have just one part localized. > > This way we would get down to 4 permutations and our console > distro would be 6.8Mb instead of current 32,3Mb > > Also if people want extra localization, they could always just > download full console release and replace that with jar we ship. > > So what do you guys think? > > > -- > tomaz > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > wildfly-dev mailing list > wildfly-dev@lists.jboss.orghttps://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > wildfly-dev mailing list > wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > wildfly-dev mailing list > wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >

------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm hoping that it won't be long before the web console is a separate download that merely connects to WildFly/EAP. At that point we would not ship web console with the server and this won't really matter any more. That might be fine for WildFly, but additional downloads is an anti-requirement for EAP.

I assume that if we do trim the console, it will be for WildFly only? That's probably a good thing but we would need to explain why the EAP download is so much larger. Also note that localization is not just for logging messages and exceptions. Some DMR operations are localized too and presumably the result does show up in the web console UI. Stan On 2/24/2014 8:59 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote: Hey guys, I was just discussing with Harald could get distro size down by 25+MB if we would trim our console a bit. Currently we compile console with 40 permutations, six browsers (ie6,ie8,ie9,gecko1_8,safari) and eight languages (en,de,es,fr,pt_BR,zh_Hans,ja,ko). I think we could drop support for ie6 and get rid of extra localization with support only EN. IE6 market share is so low this days that it really does not make sense to support it in upstream anymore. Also we don't ship localization of logging messages/exceptions in WildFy anyway, so why have just one part localized. This way we would get down to 4 permutations and our console distro would be 6.8Mb instead of current 32,3Mb Also if people want extra localization, they could always just download full console release and replace that with jar we ship. So what do you guys think? -- tomaz _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev@lists.jboss.orghttps://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

I filed [HAL-381] to further track this. [HAL-381] https://issues.jboss.org/browse/HAL-381 Regards Harald Am 25.02.2014 um 01:19 schrieb Stan Silvert <ssilvert(a)redhat.com&gt;: > On 2/24/2014 3:55 PM, John Doyle wrote: >> >> >> I'm hoping that it won't be long before the web console is a separate download that merely connects to WildFly/EAP. At that point we would not ship web console with the server and this won't really matter any more. >> That might be fine for WildFly, but additional downloads is an anti-requirement for EAP. > The user doesn't necessarily know the difference as long as he is connected to the internet. Whether the console app is first downloaded from the EAP server or from a Red Hat server shouldn't matter. > >> >> >> I assume that if we do trim the console, it will be for WildFly only? That's probably a good thing but we would need to explain why the EAP download is so much larger. >> >> Also note that localization is not just for logging messages and exceptions. Some DMR operations are localized too and presumably the result does show up in the web console UI. >> >> Stan >> >> On 2/24/2014 8:59 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote: >> Hey guys, >> >> I was just discussing with Harald could get distro size down by 25+MB if we would trim our console a bit. >> >> Currently we compile console with 40 permutations, six browsers (ie6,ie8,ie9,gecko1_8,safari) and eight languages (en,de,es,fr,pt_BR,zh_Hans,ja,ko). >> >> I think we could drop support for ie6 and get rid of extra localization with support only EN. >> IE6 market share is so low this days that it really does not make sense to support it in upstream anymore. >> Also we don't ship localization of logging messages/exceptions in WildFy anyway, so why have just one part localized. >> >> This way we would get down to 4 permutations and our console distro would be 6.8Mb instead of current 32,3Mb >> >> Also if people want extra localization, they could always just download full console release and replace that with jar we ship. >> >> So what do you guys think? >> >> >> -- >> tomaz >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> wildfly-dev mailing list >> wildfly-dev@lists.jboss.orghttps://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> wildfly-dev mailing list >> wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >> > > _______________________________________________ > wildfly-dev mailing list > wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev --- Harald Pehl JBoss by Red Hat http://hpehl.info

------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 2/24/2014 3:55 PM, John Doyle wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm hoping that it won't be long before the web console is a separate download that merely connects to WildFly/EAP. At that point we would not ship web console with the server and this won't really matter any more. That might be fine for WildFly, but additional downloads is an anti-requirement for EAP. The user doesn't necessarily know the difference as long as he is connected to the internet. Whether the console app is first downloaded from the EAP server or from a Red Hat server shouldn't matter. We have users that cannot connect to the internet for security reasons.

I assume that if we do trim the console, it will be for WildFly only? That's probably a good thing but we would need to explain why the EAP download is so much larger. Also note that localization is not just for logging messages and exceptions. Some DMR operations are localized too and presumably the result does show up in the web console UI. Stan On 2/24/2014 8:59 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote: Hey guys, I was just discussing with Harald could get distro size down by 25+MB if we would trim our console a bit. Currently we compile console with 40 permutations, six browsers (ie6,ie8,ie9,gecko1_8,safari) and eight languages (en,de,es,fr,pt_BR,zh_Hans,ja,ko). I think we could drop support for ie6 and get rid of extra localization with support only EN. IE6 market share is so low this days that it really does not make sense to support it in upstream anymore. Also we don't ship localization of logging messages/exceptions in WildFy anyway, so why have just one part localized. This way we would get down to 4 permutations and our console distro would be 6.8Mb instead of current 32,3Mb Also if people want extra localization, they could always just download full console release and replace that with jar we ship. So what do you guys think? -- tomaz _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev@lists.jboss.orghttps://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

I hope this separation of the console from Wildfly is optional. Its a much bigger advantage to be able to download one distro, unzip, and run, specifically for development. Makes it simple for 1st time users. For development, nobody cares if there's an extra 30M that's part of the distro.

I understood that you and Herald were the ones driving this. Is your +1 just for the "optional" part or do you no longer think that having the console as an independent downloadable app is a good idea? > > On 26 Feb 2014, at 04:21, Bill Burke <bburke(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote: > >> I hope this separation of the console from Wildfly is optional. Its a >> much bigger advantage to be able to download one distro, unzip, and run, >> specifically for development. Makes it simple for 1st time users. For >> development, nobody cares if there's an extra 30M that's part of the >> distro. > > > > _______________________________________________ > wildfly-dev mailing list > wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev

Hey guys, I was just discussing with Harald could get distro size down by 25+MB if we would trim our console a bit. Currently we compile console with 40 permutations, six browsers (ie6,ie8,ie9,gecko1_8,safari) and eight languages (en,de,es,fr,pt_BR,zh_Hans,ja,ko). I think we could drop support for ie6 and get rid of extra localization with support only EN. IE6 market share is so low this days that it really does not make sense to support it in upstream anymore. Also we don't ship localization of logging messages/exceptions in WildFy anyway, so why have just one part localized. This way we would get down to 4 permutations and our console distro would be 6.8Mb instead of current 32,3Mb Also if people want extra localization, they could always just download full console release and replace that with jar we ship. So what do you guys think? -- tomaz _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev