6 p.m.
Hey,
I know we’ve been discussing this before, but with no solution. I myself think, that the
store should fail to open when the passphrase is wrong, because that’s where you’d like to
have your “try .. catch ..” to handle the problem, not elsewhere, when you want to
actually read/write/delete from the store, that’s just not very user friendly.
If the answer to that is YES, then the next question is, how to decide when the passphrase
is right and when it isn’t. Again I’ll write more ways I’ve got on mind, that’d solve
this. Important is, that none of them actually stores the passphrase!
On each call of ‘open()’:
1. do ‘readAll()’ to ensure the passphrase is right. Basically, that’s what user has to do
now to find out if the passphrase is right.
2. read the first row and if the read is successful, then the passphrase is right. In this
case, we’d have to be 100% sure that there is no way to put data into the store with
different key and thus all the rows are encrypted with the same passphrase.
3. Save some metadata for each data model, that would be encrypted with the same
passphrase and we’d read them and if successful, the passphrase is right. This has two
possible implementations.
a. The first row in the data model table would be reserved for the metadata, so the
verification would work similarly to the option 2.
b. There would be separate table, in which we’d add a row for each data model table.
Again, very similar to a. but without the pain of having different data in the same table.
Also, if the implementation of SQLStore will become multi-table (instead of multi-database
which is now), there would be only one table for all the metadata.
So, what do you think?
PS: For abstractj, I’ve been trying to find any library that would do the encryption on
high-level, as AeroGear does, but couldn’t find any. There are many ways to encrypt SQLite
database though they work on different approach of encrypting the whole database file, not
just rows themselves.
—
Tadeas Kriz
tkriz(a)redhat.com
1:54 p.m.
--
abstractj
On January 20, 2014 at 3:00:54 PM, Tadeas Kriz (tkriz(a)redhat.com) wrote:
Hey,
I know we’ve been discussing this before, but with no solution.
I myself think, that the store should fail to open when the passphrase
is wrong, because that’s where you’d like to have your “try ..
catch ..” to handle the problem, not elsewhere, when you want
to actually read/write/delete from the store, that’s just not
very user friendly.
If the answer to that is YES, then the next question is, how to decide
when the passphrase is right and when it isn’t. Again I’ll write
Like I mentioned here (https://issues.jboss.org/browse/AGDROID-173), our goal to the very
initial release was not to make anything perfect, but lay down the groundwork for
encryption. So if you where you read “Experimental”, by that means, not perfect.
Offline authentication didn’t start yet, so that might happen. The API will be user
friendly when become stable.
more ways I’ve got on mind, that’d solve this. Important is, that
none of them actually stores the passphrase!
On each call of ‘open()’:
1. do ‘readAll()’ to ensure the passphrase is right. Basically,
that’s what user has to do now to find out if the passphrase is right.
2. read the first row and if the read is successful, then the passphrase
is right. In this case, we’d have to be 100% sure that there is no
way to put data into the store with different key and thus all the
rows are encrypted with the same passphrase.
We are aware of it, at the same time we didn’t add support for querying into the database.
That’s planned, but not atm. Our focus was data encryption, optimizations will come with
the next releases, for this reason a jiras like this exist
https://issues.jboss.org/browse/AGSEC-137
3. Save some metadata for each data model, that would be encrypted
with the same passphrase and we’d read them and if successful,
the passphrase is right. This has two possible implementations.
a. The first row in the data model table would be reserved for the
metadata, so the verification would work similarly to the option
2.
b. There would be separate table, in which we’d add a row for each
data model table. Again, very similar to a. but without the pain
of having different data in the same table. Also, if the implementation
of SQLStore will become multi-table (instead of multi-database
which is now), there would be only one table for all the metadata.
So, what do you think?
Repeating what I said on that Jira, it seems too much. APIs like SQLCipher don’t do that.
PS: For abstractj, I’ve been trying to find any library that would
do the encryption on high-level, as AeroGear does, but couldn’t
find any. There are many ways to encrypt SQLite database though
they work on different approach of encrypting the whole database
file, not just rows themselves.
That’s the reason why we’ve been working on it.
—
Tadeas Kriz
tkriz(a)redhat.com
_______________________________________________
aerogear-dev mailing list
aerogear-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/aerogear-dev
3:18 p.m.
On 21 Jan 2014, at 13:54, Bruno Oliveira <bruno(a)abstractj.org> wrote:
--
abstractj
On January 20, 2014 at 3:00:54 PM, Tadeas Kriz (tkriz(a)redhat.com) wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> I know we’ve been discussing this before, but with no solution.
> I myself think, that the store should fail to open when the passphrase
> is wrong, because that’s where you’d like to have your “try ..
> catch ..” to handle the problem, not elsewhere, when you want
> to actually read/write/delete from the store, that’s just not
> very user friendly.
>
> If the answer to that is YES, then the next question is, how to decide
> when the passphrase is right and when it isn’t. Again I’ll write
Like I mentioned here (https://issues.jboss.org/browse/AGDROID-173), our goal to the very
initial release was not to make anything perfect, but lay down the groundwork for
encryption. So if you where you read “Experimental”, by that means, not perfect.
Offline authentication didn’t start yet, so that might happen. The API will be user
friendly when become stable.
On one side, the API for DataManager is considered stable, because changing it is
postponed for version 2.0.0, but on the other hand it’s not stable? I’m a bit confused
right now. I completely agree with the decision to not change the DataManager API before
2.0.0, but that means the API should be almost perfect and the implementation might not be
as good, because the implementation can be improved overtime.
> more ways I’ve got on mind, that’d solve this. Important is, that
> none of them actually stores the passphrase!
>
> On each call of ‘open()’:
> 1. do ‘readAll()’ to ensure the passphrase is right. Basically,
> that’s what user has to do now to find out if the passphrase is right.
>
> 2. read the first row and if the read is successful, then the passphrase
> is right. In this case, we’d have to be 100% sure that there is no
> way to put data into the store with different key and thus all the
> rows are encrypted with the same passphrase.
We are aware of it, at the same time we didn’t add support for querying into the
database. That’s planned, but not atm. Our focus was data encryption, optimizations will
come with the next releases, for this reason a jiras like this
existhttps://issues.jboss.org/browse/AGSEC-137
I’m not talking about optimisations there. The whole problem is about developer’s
experience. Like I wouldn’t like to have to add try .. catch .. everywhere I’d like to
read/save/delete from encrypted database, that’s just not cool.
>
> 3. Save some metadata for each data model, that would be encrypted
> with the same passphrase and we’d read them and if successful,
> the passphrase is right. This has two possible implementations.
>
> a. The first row in the data model table would be reserved for the
> metadata, so the verification would work similarly to the option
> 2.
>
> b. There would be separate table, in which we’d add a row for each
> data model table. Again, very similar to a. but without the pain
> of having different data in the same table. Also, if the implementation
> of SQLStore will become multi-table (instead of multi-database
> which is now), there would be only one table for all the metadata.
>
> So, what do you think?
Repeating what I said on that Jira, it seems too much. APIs like SQLCipher don’t do that.
You can’t compare EncryptedSQLStore with SQLCipher. Completely different way of
encryption. SQLCipher encrypts the database page by page (mostly chunks of 1024 bytes),
but EncryptedSQLStore encrypts only the data row by row individually (check [1] for very
simple comparsion). That’s completely different approach. This way you can find out if the
passphrase is right by calling basically any SQL command and an exception will be thrown
if it won’t succeed. That’s something that cannot be achieved with current
EncryptedSQLStore implementation. The EncryptedSQLStore already saves IV and Salt in
separate table. It wouldn’t be a problem, performance issue or space issue to add one more
row, which the EncryptedSQLStore would try to decrypt and if successful, that’d mean the
passphrase is correct. The value of that row might be just an encrypted JSON with random
key and value. That way, you’d check if the decrypted is valid JSON. There should be no
security issue with that, or is there?
>
> PS: For abstractj, I’ve been trying to find any library that would
> do the encryption on high-level, as AeroGear does, but couldn’t
> find any. There are many ways to encrypt SQLite database though
> they work on different approach of encrypting the whole database
> file, not just rows themselves.
That’s the reason why we’ve been working on it.
I’m not saying “don’t work on it”. I’m just trying to help, so it'll have added value
for the user.
>
> —
> Tadeas Kriz
> tkriz(a)redhat.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> aerogear-dev mailing list
> aerogear-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/aerogear-dev
1 - http://i.imgur.com/u7WFNPJ.png
3:26 p.m.
--
abstractj
On January 21, 2014 at 12:18:34 PM, Tadeas Kriz (tkriz(a)redhat.com) wrote:
> You can’t compare EncryptedSQLStore with SQLCipher. Completely
Keep in mind that I never did that ;)
different way of encryption. SQLCipher encrypts the database
page by page (mostly chunks of 1024 bytes), but EncryptedSQLStore
encrypts only the data row by row individually (check [1] for
very simple comparsion). That’s completely different approach.
This way you can find out if the passphrase is right by calling
basically any SQL command and an exception will be thrown if it
won’t succeed. That’s something that cannot be achieved with
current EncryptedSQLStore implementation. The EncryptedSQLStore
already saves IV and Salt in separate table. It wouldn’t be a problem,
performance issue or space issue to add one more row, which the
EncryptedSQLStore would try to decrypt and if successful, that’d
mean the passphrase is correct. The value of that row might be
just an encrypted JSON with random key and value. That way, you’d
check if the decrypted is valid JSON. There should be no security
issue with that, or is there?
I never mentioned “security issue” in any kind of e-mail or Jira.
3:29 p.m.
—
Tadeas Kriz
tkriz(a)redhat.com
On 21 Jan 2014, at 15:26, Bruno Oliveira <bruno(a)abstractj.org> wrote:
--
abstractj
On January 21, 2014 at 12:18:34 PM, Tadeas Kriz (tkriz(a)redhat.com) wrote:
>> You can’t compare EncryptedSQLStore with SQLCipher. Completely
Keep in mind that I never did that ;)
Then I had to misunderstood the "APIs like SQLCipher don’t do that.”, sorry about
that.
> different way of encryption. SQLCipher encrypts the database
> page by page (mostly chunks of 1024 bytes), but EncryptedSQLStore
> encrypts only the data row by row individually (check [1] for
> very simple comparsion). That’s completely different approach.
> This way you can find out if the passphrase is right by calling
> basically any SQL command and an exception will be thrown if it
> won’t succeed. That’s something that cannot be achieved with
> current EncryptedSQLStore implementation. The EncryptedSQLStore
> already saves IV and Salt in separate table. It wouldn’t be a problem,
> performance issue or space issue to add one more row, which the
> EncryptedSQLStore would try to decrypt and if successful, that’d
> mean the passphrase is correct. The value of that row might be
> just an encrypted JSON with random key and value. That way, you’d
> check if the decrypted is valid JSON. There should be no security
> issue with that, or is there?
I never mentioned “security issue” in any kind of e-mail or Jira.
Then why would it be a problem?
3:34 p.m.
Because password validation and data encryption are completely different things, both
features were planned and I don’t want to workaround it only because some feature still
doesn’t exist.
--
abstractj
On January 21, 2014 at 12:29:23 PM, Tadeas Kriz (tkriz(a)redhat.com) wrote:
> Then why would it be a problem?
3:36 p.m.
—
Tadeas Kriz
tkriz(a)redhat.com
On 21 Jan 2014, at 15:34, Bruno Oliveira <bruno(a)abstractj.org> wrote:
Because password validation and data encryption are completely
different things, both features were planned and I don’t want to workaround it only
because some feature still doesn’t exist.
So, does that mean that when user calls ‘open’ on EncryptedSQLStore, he’ll get an
exception if he used wrong passphrase (or for example keystore) ?
--
abstractj
On January 21, 2014 at 12:29:23 PM, Tadeas Kriz (tkriz(a)redhat.com) wrote:
>> Then why would it be a problem?
3:39 p.m.
Yes, we are under the data encryption domain right?
Either way you are free to suggest whatever you think is ideal for you, if the team agree
on that, I would respect their decision. Even if it doesn’t sound right for me.
--
abstractj
On January 21, 2014 at 12:36:24 PM, Tadeas Kriz (tkriz(a)redhat.com) wrote:
> So, does that mean that when user calls ‘open’ on
EncryptedSQLStore,
he’ll get an exception if he used wrong passphrase (or for example
keystore) ?
3:46 p.m.
Right, the whole time all I was trying to agree on is that the user should know that the
EncryptedSQLStore can’t decrypt the data inside it with the passphrase (or any other
authentication method) when trying to open the store and not on ‘read’ like it’s now. All
my suggestions were how that could be done and it seems that you have just another
solution for that. As I see it, we’ve just misunderstood each other (or it might be just
on my side).
To wrap it up, if there are plans that EncryptedSQLStore#open would be the method to throw
InvalidKeyException and not other methods (well, of course other methods might be throwing
this too, but that’d be just in some corner cases in which the database was tampered after
it was already opened), I’m all good with that.
—
Tadeas Kriz
tkriz(a)redhat.com
On 21 Jan 2014, at 15:39, Bruno Oliveira <bruno(a)abstractj.org> wrote:
Yes, we are under the data encryption domain right?
Either way you are free to suggest whatever you think is ideal for you, if the team agree
on that, I would respect their decision. Even if it doesn’t sound right for me.
--
abstractj
On January 21, 2014 at 12:36:24 PM, Tadeas Kriz (tkriz(a)redhat.com) wrote:
>> So, does that mean that when user calls ‘open’ on EncryptedSQLStore,
> he’ll get an exception if he used wrong passphrase (or for example
> keystore) ?
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