Right s:validate works to circumvent the problem in my trivial example. I have more problems when trying to evaluate objects usually in EL when choosing to render them or not. I end up having to check the value of the primary key of the entity instead of the entity itself. For example, if had some dependent controls and did not want to render the other controls until previous ones where filled in. | <h:inputText value="#{foo.bar}"> | <a4j:support event="onblur" actionListener="#{backing.submitFoo}"/> | </h:inputText> | <h:inputText value="#{goo.bar}" | rendered="#{foo.Id == null}"/> It would be more intuitive to just say rendered="#{foo == null}" I understand why I can't but its misleading to a newcomer View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4090434#... Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&a...