"SmokingAPipe" wrote : I put in: <h:messages globalOnly="false"/> after the table, and get no messages. I also turned off all the validation in the various classes. This is 99% a bug in the JSF implementation. I think you need to produce a simple runnable test case then. anonymous wrote : There's no reason why it shouldn't hit the "update model values" phase, because if it were dying in the process validations phase, there would be some type of message, right? There would be a message in h:messages, yes. anonymous wrote : Surely with all the advanced features of Seam and JSF there's some way for it tell me which phase it's in, what it's doing, etc? In any normal programming system you can trace the values of variables. Sorry, I'm not in front of the right computer atm so can't give you details but you can do this by attaching a debugger into myfaces. Also, I've just noticed that you are using tomahawk. You would be much better stripping all that out and reproducing this with just h: components View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=3991157#... Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&a...