Without knowing the details of the assumption directly in the EL implementation and the interpretation of the JSF lifecycle its hard to tell. How does one solve the problem completely? Well, thats the million dollar question :) I suggest writing a clean JUnit test scenario that proves the problem. Then, extend the diagnosis to the main problem at hand. Personally, I know how one can get lost in the details. JPA and Hibernate have done a fine job, though I think the core of the issue is the common misuse of the Proxy. If it worked in one version and not the latest, you may have been able to slip past a crack in the implementation that is now fixed. Good luck. View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4095428#... Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&a...