To be Seam managed the entity must be loaded with an SMPC (aka EntityManager injected with @In). You don't have to use an SMPC to load the list (in either version) but, if you don't use an SMPC and a conversation, you must implement equals on your entities. I don't think your problem has anything to do with whether your entities are Seam managed. Instead I think it is probably due to using icefaces, which the entityConverter has not had extensive (by the Seam team at least) testing with. View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4071504#... Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&a...