Hi Norman, Yes I can confirm that by simply changing the scope to SESSION and removing the @Begin does make the example work. I also tried the @Out(required=false) Item and changed the page to read the @Out-jected item instead of the action class getter and left the scope as CONVERSATION. I got the following: 1. The @Create annotation method did fire, makes sense as there is now no reference to the testPage class in the rendering as all reference is to the out-jected item variable. 2. The example works, albeit slightly differently as item is null to begin with until you press the New Item link, but otherwise everything works as expected. If I force the @Create to run by inserting a dummy #{testPage.item} into the page, leave the scope as CONVERSATION the example goes back to not working. If I use @Factory("item") instead of create the example fails. (Scope is still CONVERSATION) If I change the scope to SESSION and use @Factory("item") the example fails If I change the scope to SESSION and use @Create (with and without forcing the @Create method to run) the example works! Hope this helps, its sure baffling me. It seems curious combinations of @Create @Factory and session scope are causing the failure As an aside does anyone know why jboss 4.2 keeps running out of PermGen Space on deployment? I am using: Seam 2.0.0BETA RichFaces 3.1.0 Jboss 4.2.GA View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4097128#... Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&a...