"pete.muir(a)jboss.org" wrote : ... hibernate is though in the persistence context? I'm not sure I understand that :) Could you please clarify? Do you mean hibernate fetched collection to Provider bean and did not refresh when User form saved (== links changed)? If yes, why usernames were refreshed - these referenced from collection and refreshed properly. I agree that probaly I'm wrong when blame Seam but there are a lot of annotations and I assumed that some combination (or simply missed) annotations lead to this side effect. At the moment I "brute-forced" it :) - set event listener to post-ins/upd/del event, register provider form method as event observer and check for collections inconsistencies | if (r instanceof User) { | User u = (User)r; | if (getProvider().getUsers().contains(u) != u.getProviders().contains(getProvider())) { | entityManager.refresh(getProvider()); | } | } | It works but I'm sure there is better solution (at least not so "in-place"). View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4111531#... Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&a...