Ronald, anonymous wrote : This is generic EL stuff.... ig you have e.g. a class Token with getter/setter like getId/setId, in EL you have to use token.id to have access to it. | Yeah, I know... it's just that we all do bonehead things like this once in a while and need a hint about where we screwed up. The log can provide this - maybe. I haven't used it in this area, so I don't know what log output is emitted and whether it is useful. I was hoping you might - I guess not, though! anonymous wrote : If it is the jboss imp, it uses log4j, so turning on debug at the rootlevel (and reducing it to the correct classes/packages if you see some interesting stuff) is what I normally do. Yes... I'm getting a sense that a lot of folks don't have the experience base for this to be an reflexive thing to do. I'm starting to wonder if it makes sense to include a log4j.xml in the config, just to steer folks toward taking advantage of it. I guess JBPM may migrate at some point to use Seam's EL implementation relatively soon, so researching into specifics about log capabilities in the current implementation may not be that useful in the long term. -Ed Staub View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=4049313#... Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&a...