"petemuir" wrote : So, Tomahawk works with Seam conversations (try using an up-to-date version i.e. 1.1.3, also n.b. Tomahawk 1.1.0 would have to have been Myfaces 1.1.0 as old versions had to have exactly the same version no, perhaps thats where you were going wrong?). It's just that Tomahawk is written in a strange way in places which means that some of the components don't work. You would be far better off using a Gavin-recommended component set (e.g. Trinidad or Icefaces), not least because you'll get more help here. I'm tripping out all the Tomahawk; there are only a dozen pages so far so that's not a big deal. Gavin has made it pretty clear, Tomahawk and Seam are like oil and water. I'm not going to try to fight that. Icefaces looks so cool I would rather use that. But I'm going to be sane and just get my plain old application working correctly first, and THEN I will try adding some Icefaces stuff. "petemuir" wrote : @Stateful Seam components are SESSION scoped by default. You shouldn't just remove the EXTENDED parameter, you should use an SMPC - http://docs.jboss.com/seam/1.1CR2/reference/en/html/configuration.html#d0... Ok, now THAT was the other thing I was missing. I didn't know about configuring the SMPC and that resulted in everything else going to hell. I'm configuring that now. I notice in that doc that it clearly explains why SMPC should make LIEs be a thing of the past, which is why I started with Seam from the beginning. anonymous wrote : You would definitely be better off changing your component set to work with Seam, not the other way around. Yes, definitely, especially because at this stage it's not much trouble for me to do that. anonymous wrote : I think it is worth pointing out that you could of course do PHP style DB access in Java using plain JDBC - but that would obviously mean no ORM etc. Oh certainly, there are plenty of web apps out there that use JSP pages with code and direct JDBC calls all throughout the page, just like with PHP, and it's equally as horrible as PHP. My goal is to get to a real object-oriented application approach. That could mean several different things, including ugly anti-patterns like using DTOs. What I really want is to bind my object all the way through to web forms using minimal glue and DTO-type code. It looks like Seam is supposed to do that if I can figure it out... SMPC and getting rid of Tomahawk and using conversations are the first steps. View the original post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=viewtopic&p=3992505#... Reply to the post : http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=posting&mode=reply&a...