Hello, I have bi-directional association between parent/child. Parent can have too many children and I want to add and remove to "children" (inverse=true) collection without loading collection. "children" collection mapped as <bag>. With adding to collection I have no problem, but when I try to remove from this collection, collection perform initialization. Java class: public class MyObject { private Long id; private MyObject parent; private Collection< MyObject > children = new ArrayList< MyObject >(); public MyObject() { } public void addChild( MyObject object ) { object.parent = this; children.add( object ); } public void removeChild( KAObject object ) { object.parent = null; children.remove( object ); // initialization of collection. it is strange, because too many children. } } Database: table: my_object fields: - id - parent_id Mapping: <hibernate-mapping> <class name="MyObject" table="my_object" > <id name="id" column="id" type="long"> <generator class="sequence"> <param name="sequence">my_object_seq</param> </generator> </id> <many-to-one name="parent" class="MyObject" column="parent_id" lazy="no-proxy" cascade="evict" access="field" /> <bag name="children" inverse="true" lazy="true" cascade="all-delete-orphan" access="field"> <key column="parent_id" /> <one-to-many class="MyObject" /> </bag> </class> I want for example move child to another parent. MyObject newParent = session.get(MyObject.class, 1); MyObject child = session.get(MyObject.class, 2); MyObject oldParent = myObject.getParent(); oldParent.removeChild(child); // initialization of collection. it is strange, because too many children. newParent.addChild(child) // no initialization Why PersistentBag.remove is not implemented like PersistentBag.add ? public boolean add(Object object) { if ( !isOperationQueueEnabled() ) { write(); return bag.add(object); } else { queueOperation( new SimpleAdd(object) ); return true; } } public boolean remove(Object o) { initialize( true ); if ( bag.remove( o ) ) { dirty(); return true; } else { return false; } } I think problem, that interface of Collection.remove(Object) should return result of remove. But what aboutm if I never use this result. I can write own implementation of PersistentBag with overrided method remove. and use it in User Collection Type. public boolean remove( Object o ) { if ( !isOperationQueueEnabled() ) { write(); return bag.remove( o ); } else { queueOperation( new SimpleRemove( o ) ); return true; // this result can be wrong } } final class SimpleRemove implements DelayedOperation { private Object value; public SimpleRemove(Object value) { this.value = value; } public void operate() { bag.remove(value); } public Object getAddedInstance() { return null; } public Object getOrphan() { return value; } } In this implementation I should always remember, that result of Collection.remove(Object) can be wrong and never use it. May be anybody know another solution?