2017-05-04 18:42 GMT+02:00 Christian Beikov <christian.beikov(a)gmail.com>:
Detecting if an object is initialized should be as easy as calling
"
Hibernate.isInitialized(object)". If you want to know whether a specic
attribute of an object is initialized you'd use
"Hibernate.isPropertyInitialized(object,
attributeName)". What you want is some kind of integration that makes use
of these two methods, so that if they return false, a null value is used
when serializing objects to XML/JSON via JAXB/JSONB. Is that correct?
Almost, I would like one able to just disable it, this way the serializer
doesnt need anything or knowledge of hibernate. Worse case we need to
integrate with the serializer in a way close to the one i proposed for
johnzon before.
In pseudo code it would be:
AnEntity e = find();
Hibernate.disableLazyExceptionWithNull(e);
serializer.serialize(e);
I don't know of any hook in JAXB that could be used to put that
code into
so it works out as you'd expect it. The only other way I can think of, is
nulling the properties explicitly which could be done quite easily. You
probably gonna need just a single recursive method to do that. I don't see
how that method should be part of Hibernate nor how you'd expect to be able
to configure Hibernate so that it would do that transparently.
the switch of lazyexception to null would work wit jaxb. Otherwise you need
some more low level integration not portable IIRC.
I still think the cleanest solution would be to have DTOs, which is
why
I'd argue that such a halve solution shouldn't be part of Hibernate.
Think we all agree (or agreed already ;)) but created this thread cause i
saw it often enough to be a need.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
------------------------------
*Christian Beikov*
Am 04.05.2017 um 18:00 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau:
2017-05-04 17:33 GMT+02:00 Steve Ebersole <steve(a)hibernate.org>:
> What exactly would this "utility one level further than existing ones" do?
>
>
Multiple options are possible but one is to return null instead of
throwing lazy exception for instance.
> And for what it is worth, IMO the new Navigable model in 6.0 will again
> help here. Especially in conjunction with the Navigable visitation
> support.
>
I'm not familiar enough but if it providers for each member a way to know
if it is loaded or not it can work.
>
> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 10:27 AM Christian Beikov <
> christian.beikov(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Well that is again exactly what a DTO is good for. If you as developer
> > want the groups to be available, you add a list of groups to that
> > special DTO type for that use case. In your data access layer you
> > somehow populate that, which is normally done by using some mapper
> > library like MapStruct or Dozer and then JAXB/JSONB can just work with
> > the DTO type without any problems.
> >
> > Now if you forget to add a JOIN FETCH to your query and you end up with
> > N+1 queries, that's a different problem, just like the amount of
> > boilerplate code needed for having DTO types for every use case. That I
> > try to solve with Blaze-Persistence Entity Views.
> >
> > Just a quick example to make my point here. If you have a REST endpoint
> > /user/{id} and want to provide the list of group names along with the
> > user information, you'd create a UserInfoDTO.
> >
> > @EntityView(User.class)
> > interface UserInfoDTO {
> > String getUsername();
> > @Mapping("groups.name")
> > List<String> getGroups();
> > }
> >
> > Your repository returns an object of that type and you just pass that
> > object through so JAXB/JSONB can do their work. The mapping information
> > in the DTO is applied on a "source query" i.e. only doing the work
> > absolutely necessary to satisfy the requested projection.
> >
> > Implementing this by hand is by no means impossible, but rather
> > inconvenient I'd say, which is probably why you are seeking for other
> > solutions.
> >
> > In the end, you can only try to create a minimal DTO that has exactly
> > the fields you want to be serialized or annotate your existing entities
> > with those "ignore" annotations and hope for the best. I don't see
how
> > hibernate could or should help in any of the two cases.
> >
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> > *Christian Beikov*
> > Am 04.05.2017 um 16:59 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau:
> > > Sure. If you add any conversion logic then you are clearly out of
> > > hibernate scope and the problem doesnt appear anymore. Here is a
> > > trivial example (hopefully trivial at least ;))
> > >
> > > User 1 - n Group
> > >
> > > In json we would get something like {username:...,groups:[group1,
> > > group2]}, no issue to know if group should be loaded or not since this
> > > part of the logic is in the mapper layer.
> > >
> > > So yes you can say "not my problem" but next framework will
> > > immediately ask "how do i know" and you likely end like all
> > > spring-data-rest recommandation with a specific mapping and not a
> > > framework solution which is the target of that thread - at least what
> > > I tried to explain ;).
> > >
> > > 2017-05-04 16:41 GMT+02:00 Christian Beikov
> > > <christian.beikov(a)gmail.com
<mailto:christian.beikov@gmail.com>>:
> > >
> > > I don't understand what you mean by "you put that logic in
the
> > > conversion", could you elaborate?
> > >
> > >
> > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> > > *Christian Beikov*
> > > Am 04.05.2017 um 16:32 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau:
> > >> Few more points:
> > >>
> > >> 1. Dto dont help at any moment - or you put that logic in the
> > >> conversion and you are back to start
> > >> 2. Making jaxb/jsonb easy to integrate is the goal IMO. No need
> > >> to integrate with them but just provide some utility one level
> > >> further than existing ones
> > >>
> > >> Le 4 mai 2017 16:13, "Steve Ebersole"
<steve(a)hibernate.org
> > >> <mailto:steve@hibernate.org>> a écrit :
> > >>
> > >> Oops, that (3) in previous reply should have read:
> > >> 3. supporting each format creates a new "optional"
library
> > >> dependency
> > >>
> > >> Overall, I like Christian's approach as a potential
> > >> generalized approach to
> > >> this. Basically a combination of
> > >>
> > >> 1. a query used to provide the "view source
values"
> > >> 2. some indication of how to map those "source
values" to
> > >> your view model
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> And again, I think 6.0's improved dynamic-instantiation
> > >> queries are a
> > >> simple, already-built-in way to achieve that for most cases.
> > >> But I am open
> > >> to discussing a way to supply that combination via API if we
> > >> deem that
> > >> would be good - although then I'd also question how the
> current
> > >> TupleTransformer does not meet that need.
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 8:43 AM Steve Ebersole
> > >> <steve(a)hibernate.org <mailto:steve@hibernate.org>>
wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Were there a standard "represent something in
XML-ish
> > >> format" contract
> > >> > portable across a number of formats (XML, JAXB, JSON,
etc)
> > >> then I'd be more
> > >> > inclined to agree with this. But as it is, supporting
this
> > >> would mean
> > >> > Hibernate implementing multiple such contracts, one per
> > >> format. However,
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. these formats are not our core competency
> > >> > 2. maintaining a complete set of these transformers
> > >> across all the
> > >> > popular formats du-jour is a large undertaking
> > >> > 3. I am not convinced that
> > >> >
> > >> > All of these increase the technical risk.
> > >> >
> > >> > Additionally, to properly support this we'd really
need the
> > >> ability to
> > >> > then "map" multiple views for a given
entity-graph-root.
> > >> What I mean by
> > >> > that, is that such DTO approaches often need multiple
> > >> "views" of a given
> > >> > entity, e.g. a CompanyListDTO, CompanyOverviewDTO,
> > >> > CompanyDetailsGeneralDTO, etc for a Company entity. The
> > >> point of this is
> > >> > that
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. the transformers for these are specific to each DTO
> > >> type and would
> > >> > be applied per-transformation
> > >> > 2. were Hibernate to "provide" this for
applications
> > >> >
> > >> > IMO the use of queries to obtain views is logical.
> > >> Populating each of
> > >> > those specific DTOs (CompanyListDTO, etc) in the most
> > >> efficient way is
> > >> > going to require very different SQL for each DTO. This
> > >> implies some kind
> > >> > of "mapping" to be able associate each DTO with
query.
> > >> >
> > >> > Given 6.0's improved dynamic-instantiation support, I
even
> > >> think that is a
> > >> > great solution as well *for most cases*.
> > >> >
> > >> > So, while my objection has a "practical impact"
component,
> > >> I also just
> > >> > question whether Hibernate integrating with each
format's
> > >> "serializer" is
> > >> > the proper solution.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 5:08 AM Christian Beikov <
> > >> > christian.beikov(a)gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:christian.beikov@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> This is exactly what I am trying to do with
> > >> Blaze-Persistence Entity
> > >> >> Views, making DTOs sexy and efficient :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Here a quick overview of how that looks like right
now:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
https://persistence.blazebit.com/documentation/entity-view/m
> anual/en_US/index.html#first-entity-view-query
> > >> <
> >
https://persistence.blazebit.com/documentation/entity-view/m
> anual/en_US/index.html#first-entity-view-query
> > >
> > >> >>
> > >> >> One of my targets is to make it possible to do
something
> > >> like this
> > >> >>
> > >> >> entityManager.createQuery("FROM Order o",
> > >> OrderDTO.class).getResultList()
> > >> >>
> > >> >> and get an optimal query, as well as objects with only
the
> > >> necessary
> > >> >> contents.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Maybe we can collaborate on that somehow?
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> > >> >> *Christian Beikov*
> > >> >> Am 04.05.2017 um 10:20 schrieb Emmanuel Bernard:
> > >> >> > Following up a bit on my previous email.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > While a core integration might be best I think,
if there
> > >> are too much
> > >> >> > reluctance, we can start with a dedicated
hibernate-dto
> > >> or whatever
> > >> >> > module or even separate project that makes life
easier
> > >> for these "pass
> > >> >> > through" use cases. This could be in the
form of a
> > >> wrapper API of sort
> > >> >> > and hence not affect existing Hibernate ORM
APIs.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Note that the ResultTransformer approach feels
like it
> > >> goes a long way
> > >> >> > towards fixing the problem but as demonstrated in
Vlad's
> > >> article
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
https://vladmihalcea.com/2017/04/03/why-you-should-use-the-h
> ibernate-resulttransformer-to-customize-result-set-mappings/
> > >> <
> >
https://vladmihalcea.com/2017/04/03/why-you-should-use-the-h
> ibernate-resulttransformer-to-customize-result-set-mappings/
> > >
> > >> >> > it still requires quite a bit of code and a
special DTO
> > >> constructor
> > >> >> > object. That's what we need to get rid of I
think.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Emmanuel
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > On Thu 17-05-04 10:04, Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> > >> >> >> I was very much in the Vlad, Steve, Christian
camp
> > >> until relatively
> > >> >> >> recently. One of my main concern being that
replacing a
> > >> proxy by null
> > >> >> >> was really sending the wrong message. So I
was against
> > >> having Hibernate
> > >> >> >> ORM facilitate such a transformation.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I am changing my mind because I am realizing
that a lot
> > >> of applications
> > >> >> >> are less complex that my perceived median. A
lot of
> > >> apps really just
> > >> >> >> want data to be fetched out and then passed
to jackson
> > >> (implicitly) and
> > >> >> >> pushed out as a REST response in JSON or some
other
> > >> serialization
> > >> >> >> protocol.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> So while we could try and keep the stance
that such a
> > >> solution should
> > >> >> >> remain out of scope of Hibernate ORM core, we
should
> > >> have a very smooth
> > >> >> >> integration with something like MapStruct to
create
> > >> such bounded DTO on
> > >> >> >> the fly. Ideally with as close to zero code
as possible
> > >> from the user
> > >> >> >> point of view.
> > >> >> >> I can't really describe how that could
look like
> > >> because I am not
> > >> >> >> familiar enough with MapStruct but I think it
should
> > >> have the following
> > >> >> >> characteristics:
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> 1. do an implicit binding between the mapped
object
> > >> graph and a
> > >> >> detached
> > >> >> >> object graph with a 1-1 mapping of type
and
> > >> replacing lazy objects
> > >> >> and
> > >> >> >> collections with null. That's the
smoothest approach
> > >> and the most
> > >> >> >> common use case but also the one where an
> > >> inexperienced person could
> > >> >> >> shoot at someone else's foot
> > >> >> >> 2. do a binding between the mapped object
graph and a
> > >> detached version
> > >> >> of
> > >> >> >> that object graph with a 1-1 mapping of
type, but
> > >> declaratively
> > >> >> >> expressing the boundaries for the detached
version.
> > >> This enforces a
> > >> >> >> clear thinking of the boundaries and will
load lazy
> > >> data in case the
> > >> >> >> object graph loaded is missing a bit. I
like the
> > >> idea on principle
> > >> >> but
> > >> >> >> I think it overlaps a lot with the fetch
graph.
> > >> >> >> 3. offer a full integration between MapStruct
and
> > >> Hibernate ORM by
> > >> >> >> letting people express a full fledge
MapStruct
> > >> transformation
> > >> >> between
> > >> >> >> the managed object graph and a different
target
> > >> structure
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> I favored MapStruct over Dozer because we
know the
> > >> MapStruct lead
> > >> >> quite well ;)
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Note however that the MapStruct approach
requires an
> > >> explicit object
> > >> >> >> copy, it feels a bit sad to have to double
memory
> > >> consumption. But that
> > >> >> >> might be a good enough approach and bypassing
the
> > >> managed object
> > >> >> >> creation leads to questions around the
Persistence
> > >> Context contract
> > >> >> >> where loading an object supposedly means it
will be in
> > >> the PC.
> > >> >> >> Maybe a constructor like query syntax
allowing to
> > >> reference a MapStruct
> > >> >> >> conversion logic might work?
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> select
mapStruct('order-and-items', o) from Order o
> > >> left join
> > >> >> fetch o.items
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Emmanuel
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> On Wed 17-04-19 14:29, Vlad Mihalcea wrote:
> > >> >> >>> Hi,
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Although I keep on seeing this request
from time to
> > >> time, I still
> > >> >> think
> > >> >> >>> it's more like a Code Smell.
> > >> >> >>> Entities are useful for when you plan to
modify them.
> > >> Otherwise, a DTO
> > >> >> >>> projection is much more efficient, and
you don't
> > >> suffer from
> > >> >> >>> LazyInitializationException.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> With the ResultTransformer, you can even
build graphs
> > >> of entities, as
> > >> >> >>> explained in this article;
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >
https://vladmihalcea.com/2017/04/03/why-you-should-use-the-h
> ibernate-resulttransformer-to-customize-result-set-mappings/
> > >> <
> >
https://vladmihalcea.com/2017/04/03/why-you-should-use-the-h
> ibernate-resulttransformer-to-customize-result-set-mappings/
> > >
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Due to how Hibernate Proxies are handled,
without
> > Bytecode
> > >> >> Enhancement,
> > >> >> >>> it's difficult to replace a Proxy
with null after the
> > >> Session is
> > >> >> closed. If
> > >> >> >>> we implemented this, we'd have to
take into
> > >> consideration both
> > >> >> Javassist
> > >> >> >>> and ByteBuddy as well as ByteCode
Enhancements.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> all in all, the implementation effort
might not
> > >> justify the benefit,
> > >> >> and
> > >> >> >>> I'm skeptical of offering a feature
that does not
> > >> encourage data
> > >> >> access
> > >> >> >>> Best Practices.
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> Vlad
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 2:18 PM,
Christian Beikov <
> > >> >> >>> christian.beikov(a)gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:christian.beikov@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >>>> Hey Romain,
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> I don't think it is a good idea
to expose entities
> > >> directly if you
> > >> >> >>>> really need a subset of the data.
> > >> >> >>>> Reasons for that thinking are that it
gets hard to
> > >> define what needs
> > >> >> to
> > >> >> >>>> be fetched or is safe to be used for
a particular use
> > >> case. Obviously
> > >> >> >>>> serialization is like a follow-up
problem.
> > >> >> >>>> I see 2 possible solutions to the
problem and both
> > >> boil down to the
> > >> >> use
> > >> >> >>>> of DTOs.
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> 1. Use an object mapper(e.g. Dozer)
that maps
> > >> entity object graphs
> > >> >> to
> > >> >> >>>> custom DTO types.
> > >> >> >>>> 2. Use specialized DTOs in
queries.
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> Implementing 1. does not help you
with lazy loading
> > >> issues and 2.
> > >> >> might
> > >> >> >>>> require very intrusive changes in
queries which is
> > >> why I implemented
> > >> >> >>>> Blaze-Persistence Entity Views
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> <
https://github.com/beikov/blaze-persistence#entity-view-us
> age
> > >> <
https://github.com/beikov/blaze-persistence#entity-view-us
> age
> > >>.
> > >> >> >>>> This is a library that allows you to
define DTOs with
> > >> mappings to the
> > >> >> >>>> entity. In a query you can define
that you want
> > >> results to be
> > >> >> >>>> "materialized" as instances
of the DTO type.
> > >> >> >>>> This reduces the pain induced by
properly separating
> the
> > >> >> "presentation
> > >> >> >>>> model" from the
"persistence model" and at the same
> > >> time will improve
> > >> >> >>>> the performance by utilizing the
mapping information.
> > >> >> >>>> I don't want to advertise too
much, just wanted to
> > >> say that I had the
> > >> >> >>>> same issues over and over which is
why I started that
> > >> project.
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> > >> >> >>>> *Christian Beikov*
> > >> >> >>>> Am 19.04.2017 um 10:51 schrieb Romain
Manni-Bucau:
> > >> >> >>>>> Hi guys,
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> Short sumarry: Wonder if
hibernate could get a
> > >> feature to kind of
> > >> >> either
> > >> >> >>>>> unproxy or freeze the entities
once leaving the
> > >> managed context to
> > >> >> avoid
> > >> >> >>>>> uncontrolled lazy loading on one
side and
> > >> serialization issues on
> > >> >> another
> > >> >> >>>>> side.
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> Use case example: a common
example is a REST service
> > >> exposing
> > >> >> directly
> > >> >> >>>>> hibernate entities (which is more
and more common
> > >> with microservice
> > >> >> >>>>> "movement").
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> Objective: the goal is to not
need any step - or
> > >> reduce them a lot -
> > >> >> >>>>> between the hibernate interaction
and a potential
> > >> serialization to
> > >> >> avoid
> > >> >> >>>>> issues with lazy loading and
unexpected loading.
> > >> Today it requires
> > >> >> some
> > >> >> >>>>> custom and hibernate specific
logic in the
> > >> serializer which kind of
> > >> >> >>>> breaks
> > >> >> >>>>> the transversality of the two
concerns
> > >> (serialization and object
> > >> >> >>>>> management/loading).
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> Implementation options I see:
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> 1. a callback requesting if the
lazy relationship
> > >> should be fetched,
> > >> >> >>>>> something like
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> public interface GraphVisitor {
> > >> >> >>>>> boolean shouldLoad(Object
rootEntity, Property
> > >> property);
> > >> >> >>>>> }
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> 2. An utility to remove any proxy
potentially
> > >> throwing an exception
> > >> >> and
> > >> >> >>>>> replacing the value by null or an
empty collection,
> > >> something like
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> MyEntity e =
Hibernate.deepUnproxy(entity);
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> 3. A switch of the proxy
implementation, this is
> > >> close to 2 but
> > >> >> wouldn't
> > >> >> >>>>> require a call to any utility,
just a configuration
> > >> in the
> > >> >> persistence
> > >> >> >>>> unit.
> > >> >> >>>>> Side note: of course all 3
options can be mixed to
> > >> create a single
> > >> >> >>>> solution
> > >> >> >>>>> like having 3 implemented based
on 1 for instance.
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> Configuration proposal: this
would be activated
> > >> through a property
> > >> >> in the
> > >> >> >>>>> persistence unit (this
shouldn't be only global IMHO
> > >> cause
> > >> >> otherwise you
> > >> >> >>>>> can't mix 2 kind of units,
like one for JSF and one
> > >> for JAX-RS to be
> > >> >> >>>>> concrete). This should also be
activable as a query
> > >> hint i think -
> > >> >> but
> > >> >> >>>> more
> > >> >> >>>>> a nice to have.
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> What this feature wouldn't be
responsible for:
> > >> cycles. If
> > >> >> relationships
> > >> >> >>>> are
> > >> >> >>>>> bidirectional then the unproxied
entity would still
> > >> "loop" if you
> > >> >> browse
> > >> >> >>>>> the object graph - this
responsability would stay in
> > >> the consumer
> > >> >> since
> > >> >> >>>> it
> > >> >> >>>>> doesn't depend on hibernate
directly but more on a
> > >> plain object
> > >> >> handling.
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> What do you think?
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >> >> >>>>> Romain Manni-Bucau
> > >> >> >>>>> @rmannibucau
<
https://twitter.com/rmannibucau
> > >> <
https://twitter.com/rmannibucau>> | Blog
> > >> >> >>>>>
<
https://blog-rmannibucau.rhcloud.com
> > >> <
https://blog-rmannibucau.rhcloud.com>> | Old Blog
> > >> >> >>>>>
<
http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com
> > >> <
http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com>> | Github <
> >
https://github.com/
> > >> >> >>>> rmannibucau> |
> > >> >> >>>>> LinkedIn
<
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau
> > >> <
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau>> | JavaEE
Factory
> > >> >> >>>>>
<
https://javaeefactory-rmannibucau.rhcloud.com
> > >> <
https://javaeefactory-rmannibucau.rhcloud.com>>
> > >> >> >>>>>
_______________________________________________
> > >> >> >>>>> hibernate-dev mailing list
> > >> >> >>>>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
> > >> <mailto:hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org>
> > >> >> >>>>>
> > >>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> > >> <
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev>
> > >> >> >>>>
_______________________________________________
> > >> >> >>>> hibernate-dev mailing list
> > >> >> >>>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
> > >> <mailto:hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org>
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >>
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev
> > >> <
https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/hibernate-dev>
> > >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >>>
_______________________________________________
> > >> >> >>> hibernate-dev mailing list
> > >> >> >>> hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
> > >> <mailto:hibernate-dev@lists.jboss.org>
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