As far as I can tell, "extra-lazy" applies to the collection itself, not its
elements. lazy="extra" is defined on <map>, <set>, <bag>,
<idbag>, <list>. 
Currently, an extra-lazy collection can be configured having <many-to-many> with
fetch="select" or outer-join="false". In the case of a map, doing a
lookup by key would not initialize the map (because the map is extra-lazy) and it would
return an uninitialized proxy for the value (because of the fetch="select" or
outer-join="false"). 
Do you think that would have a real-world application?
Removing the fetch="select" or outer-join="false" functionality from
<many-to-many> on an extra-lazy collection would not change the normal extra-lazy
behavior, avoiding initialization of the collection itself.
Gail
----- Original Message -----
 From: "Sanne Grinovero" <sanne(a)hibernate.org>
 To: "Gail Badner" <gbadner(a)redhat.com>
 Cc: "hibernate-dev" <hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org>
 Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 4:47:58 PM
 Subject: Re: [hibernate-dev] Use cases for many-to-many collection of proxies?
 
 Hi Gail,
 does this impact as well the "extra-lazy" collections?
 I definitely had great use cases for them in the past.
 
 On 21 October 2013 19:22, Gail Badner <gbadner(a)redhat.com> wrote:
 > Are there real-world use cases where an initialized many-to-many collection
 > should contain elements that are uninitialized proxies (HibernateProxy),
 > rather than entity instances?
 >
 > Currently, it is possible to configure this behavior using either:
 >
 > <many-to-many ... fetch="select"/>
 > <many-to-many ... outer-join="false"/>
 >
 > We are considering removing this capability if there are no real-world use
 > cases.
 >
 > Fetch profiles do not provide this level of granularity. The fetch style
 > for the collection itself, but not its elements, can be configured using a
 > fetch profile.
 >
 > As far as I know, JPA does not provide this level of granularity either.
 >
 > Please let us know if you are using this functionality.
 >
 > Thanks,
 > Gail
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 > hibernate-dev(a)lists.jboss.org
 > 
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